Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SecularFuture · 11-12-2002, 05:11 AM

<a href="http://www.christianforums.com/threads/26843.html" target="_blank">http://www.christianforums.com/threads/26843.html</a>
<a href="http://www.christianforums.com/threads/27293.html" target="_blank">http://www.christianforums.com/threads/27293.html</a>

They banned me from their site because I was hitting on to a good point, I think. Please, if you have time, �finish them off�.

SecularFuture · 11-12-2002, 05:13 AM

~~~ My Main Point ~~~

My Search for God
by Tony S (2002)

I have always wanted to, and I still want to, believe in a God. I have embraced all of the spiritual advice given to me by priests and my religious friends. I have tried prayer, meditation, and I have studied prophetic teachings, including those from Jesus Christ. Instead of finding answers, I only found more questions, questions that are supposed to be ignored through something called "faith."

There are two different kinds of faith: reasoned faith and religious faith. Reasoned faith is based on naturalistic evidence and sustained experiences. For example: If I unplug my computer, it will turn off. I have reason and evidence to support my notion. Religious faith is based on notions without naturalistic evidence and brief "divine" experiences. For example: There is an unseen, supernatural, place outside of our world called Heaven. But why should there be? Is there reason or evidence to support this notion?

Would countries be happy with government leaders who never showed themselves, and refused to speak aloud? I would not, and this is what bothers me most about the God concept. Why would a loving God make it so frustrating for people like me--who want to believe--to believe in Him? Our human imperfections, and our intuition, deceive us on a daily basis. Why would He insist that we rely solely on our intuition, and on faith alone, to believe in Him? Is it really asking too much for a physical touch or an audible voice? Many religious writings describe very obvious interactions between man and the supernatural. Why aren't these interactions as obvious today? Why doesn't He give us more evidence for His existence, and why would He, as some believe, punish us so severely for our confusion?

Some claim that they have heard from, been touched by, and/or have had a brief divine experience through God. But, how do they know that their continual belief in a God isn't psychologically disturbing their rational judgment, and/or creating what they feel to be God's presence?

Some claim that the fulfilled prophecies found in many religious writings is proof that there is a divine power. No one has seen most prophecies happen, and the ones that describe current events are too vague to accept as hard truth.

Some try to use circular reasoning and �intelligent design theory� to prove the existence of God. �Proof of God can be found through life and its design.� - - �Life and its design is proof of God.�

During our less sophisticated beginnings, before computers were mainstream, many of our explanations involved supernatural concepts. When the rain came, we thought a deity was delivering it from an unknown place. When the Earth quaked, we thought a deity was doing it through anger. Many of us thought the Sun moved around a flat Earth because, from our vantage point, that is how everything appeared. "How could something come from nothing," we asked. "There must be a creator, a God, something beyond our human comprehension living outside of our physical world."

Before we were able to explain the world through naturalistic means, before technology was as advanced as it is today, we devised the first supernatural concepts. We didn't have weather balloons and meteorologists to accurately interpret the weather then. We didn't have a Richter scale and geophysicists to accurately interpret earthquakes. And we didn't understand quantum mechanics, the physics which gives explanation to how something could, in fact, come from what we consider "nothing."

Many theists are quick to question the weight of science, but never to take the unbiased approach to question their own faith in God. And how can anyone properly question the weight of science without a thorough education in the field they wish to criticize? I have taken the time to study both religious and nonreligious writings, and I have come to the only rational conclusion.

If our knowledge of the world was limited during our ancient beginnings, why should we lock ourselves into our earliest concepts? Where did the word 'God' really come from? If we had advanced scientific knowledge then, would there have been a reason to invent the concept of "supernatural?" Did a God create man, or did man create God to give easy explanation, and meaning, to what he couldn�t explain rationally at the time?

If there is no God, where does that leave us? If there is no God, we must become more responsible for our actions and for the world around us. If there is no one to tell us what is right from wrong, we must use our own intelligence and common sense to remind ourselves of the differences, and not do wrong simply because we can. We only have one planet and one life, for now, so we must all work together and take care of it.

Talulah · 11-12-2002, 05:28 AM

Moving to Miscellaneaous Religious Discussions.

[ November 12, 2002: Message edited by: Talulah ]</p>

agapeo · 11-12-2002, 06:09 AM

Quote:

I have always wanted to, and I still want to, believe in a God.

Why?

Infinity Lover · 11-12-2002, 06:50 AM

Sorry Tony, but I have no Idea who "them" are, or the "we" you're alledgedly representing, or what this "finishing off" would be. I just don't like to generalize and think in terms of groups, and I don't consider myself to be on some kind of cruisade. Whatever it is you're talking about there, I strongly doubt it would accomplish anything positive.

Secular future wrote:
---------------------
"...we must become more responsible for our actions and for the world around us. If there is no one to tell us what is right from wrong, we must use our own intelligence and common sense to remind ourselves of the differences, and not do wrong simply because we can. We only have one planet and one life, for now, so we must all work together and take care of it."
--------------------------------

There is only one bit of world you can change for sure, and that's YOU. Considering this isn't the first time you got kicked off a bullitinboard, and I don't deem it impossible it isn't going to be the last time, may I please boldly suggest you started focussing your energy on that bit of the world a bit more.

And I sincerely mean that on a constructively critical note. You have a good head on your shoulders, and the capacity to post compelling insights. I genuinly enjoyed reading your seccond post.

[ November 12, 2002: Message edited by: Infinity Lover ]</p>

Amie · 11-12-2002, 04:08 PM

hey troublemaker

Tony did you get banned again from there?! ah well dont feel bad remember they banned me for a few months too a while back...
I am surprised though since your threads seem to be the hot ones right now and there are some excellent points made..I'll have to go take a glance

Oh BTW I sent you a pm at CF yesterday, great timing...lol...

[edit in checked at CF and could not access threads...odd are you sure you are banned, I see your account but I am having issues opening the threads...weird]
best wishes!

[ November 12, 2002: Message edited by: Amie ]</p>

Shake · 11-17-2002, 12:54 PM

Other than for the humor factor, why do us infidels even go there at all? From what I've seen of those forums, we're going to be hard pressed to change the thinking of them over there. We might win over some fence-sitters, but the true fundies will just resist all the stronger for our attacks of logic (no matter how sound or strong). You know how they are.

I really feel my efforts and time are better spent with the fence-sitters that have come here to see what they can find out.

The Naked Mage · 11-17-2002, 01:00 PM

My good friend Shake here is right. Hard-core Fundies are like natural disasters; you should deal with them just by staying the hell away from them.

Bible Humper · 11-17-2002, 01:33 PM

Quote:

I have always wanted to, and I still want to, believe in a God.

Why?

I'm glad that the OT beast doesn't exist, but the gentle, magical grandfather that most Xians believe in nowadays would be awesome.

An eternity of pleasure and happiness, it could be worse!

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Bible Humper ]</p>

Primordial Groove · 11-17-2002, 03:19 PM

Hey Amie, you want to come over and have a 'revelation'?

11-12-2002, 05:11 AM	#1
SecularFuture Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 3,866	We Need Backup At The Christian Forums! <a href="http://www.christianforums.com/threads/26843.html" target="_blank">http://www.christianforums.com/threads/26843.html</a> <a href="http://www.christianforums.com/threads/27293.html" target="_blank">http://www.christianforums.com/threads/27293.html</a> They banned me from their site because I was hitting on to a good point, I think. Please, if you have time, �finish them off�.

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11-12-2002, 05:13 AM	#2
SecularFuture Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 3,866	~~~ My Main Point ~~~ My Search for God by Tony S (2002) I have always wanted to, and I still want to, believe in a God. I have embraced all of the spiritual advice given to me by priests and my religious friends. I have tried prayer, meditation, and I have studied prophetic teachings, including those from Jesus Christ. Instead of finding answers, I only found more questions, questions that are supposed to be ignored through something called "faith." There are two different kinds of faith: reasoned faith and religious faith. Reasoned faith is based on naturalistic evidence and sustained experiences. For example: If I unplug my computer, it will turn off. I have reason and evidence to support my notion. Religious faith is based on notions without naturalistic evidence and brief "divine" experiences. For example: There is an unseen, supernatural, place outside of our world called Heaven. But why should there be? Is there reason or evidence to support this notion? Would countries be happy with government leaders who never showed themselves, and refused to speak aloud? I would not, and this is what bothers me most about the God concept. Why would a loving God make it so frustrating for people like me--who want to believe--to believe in Him? Our human imperfections, and our intuition, deceive us on a daily basis. Why would He insist that we rely solely on our intuition, and on faith alone, to believe in Him? Is it really asking too much for a physical touch or an audible voice? Many religious writings describe very obvious interactions between man and the supernatural. Why aren't these interactions as obvious today? Why doesn't He give us more evidence for His existence, and why would He, as some believe, punish us so severely for our confusion? Some claim that they have heard from, been touched by, and/or have had a brief divine experience through God. But, how do they know that their continual belief in a God isn't psychologically disturbing their rational judgment, and/or creating what they feel to be God's presence? Some claim that the fulfilled prophecies found in many religious writings is proof that there is a divine power. No one has seen most prophecies happen, and the ones that describe current events are too vague to accept as hard truth. Some try to use circular reasoning and �intelligent design theory� to prove the existence of God. �Proof of God can be found through life and its design.� - - �Life and its design is proof of God.� During our less sophisticated beginnings, before computers were mainstream, many of our explanations involved supernatural concepts. When the rain came, we thought a deity was delivering it from an unknown place. When the Earth quaked, we thought a deity was doing it through anger. Many of us thought the Sun moved around a flat Earth because, from our vantage point, that is how everything appeared. "How could something come from nothing," we asked. "There must be a creator, a God, something beyond our human comprehension living outside of our physical world." Before we were able to explain the world through naturalistic means, before technology was as advanced as it is today, we devised the first supernatural concepts. We didn't have weather balloons and meteorologists to accurately interpret the weather then. We didn't have a Richter scale and geophysicists to accurately interpret earthquakes. And we didn't understand quantum mechanics, the physics which gives explanation to how something could, in fact, come from what we consider "nothing." Many theists are quick to question the weight of science, but never to take the unbiased approach to question their own faith in God. And how can anyone properly question the weight of science without a thorough education in the field they wish to criticize? I have taken the time to study both religious and nonreligious writings, and I have come to the only rational conclusion. If our knowledge of the world was limited during our ancient beginnings, why should we lock ourselves into our earliest concepts? Where did the word 'God' really come from? If we had advanced scientific knowledge then, would there have been a reason to invent the concept of "supernatural?" Did a God create man, or did man create God to give easy explanation, and meaning, to what he couldn�t explain rationally at the time? If there is no God, where does that leave us? If there is no God, we must become more responsible for our actions and for the world around us. If there is no one to tell us what is right from wrong, we must use our own intelligence and common sense to remind ourselves of the differences, and not do wrong simply because we can. We only have one planet and one life, for now, so we must all work together and take care of it.

11-12-2002, 05:28 AM	#3
Talulah Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Beautiful Colorado Posts: 682	Moving to Miscellaneaous Religious Discussions. [ November 12, 2002: Message edited by: Talulah ]</p>

11-12-2002, 06:50 AM	#5
Infinity Lover Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,047	Sorry Tony, but I have no Idea who "them" are, or the "we" you're alledgedly representing, or what this "finishing off" would be. I just don't like to generalize and think in terms of groups, and I don't consider myself to be on some kind of cruisade. Whatever it is you're talking about there, I strongly doubt it would accomplish anything positive. Secular future wrote: --------------------- "...we must become more responsible for our actions and for the world around us. If there is no one to tell us what is right from wrong, we must use our own intelligence and common sense to remind ourselves of the differences, and not do wrong simply because we can. We only have one planet and one life, for now, so we must all work together and take care of it." -------------------------------- There is only one bit of world you can change for sure, and that's YOU. Considering this isn't the first time you got kicked off a bullitinboard, and I don't deem it impossible it isn't going to be the last time, may I please boldly suggest you started focussing your energy on that bit of the world a bit more. And I sincerely mean that on a constructively critical note. You have a good head on your shoulders, and the capacity to post compelling insights. I genuinly enjoyed reading your seccond post. [ November 12, 2002: Message edited by: Infinity Lover ]</p>

11-12-2002, 04:08 PM	#6
Amie Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: New York Posts: 1,626	hey troublemaker Tony did you get banned again from there?! ah well dont feel bad remember they banned me for a few months too a while back... I am surprised though since your threads seem to be the hot ones right now and there are some excellent points made..I'll have to go take a glance Oh BTW I sent you a pm at CF yesterday, great timing...lol... [edit in checked at CF and could not access threads...odd are you sure you are banned, I see your account but I am having issues opening the threads...weird] best wishes! [ November 12, 2002: Message edited by: Amie ]</p>

11-17-2002, 12:54 PM	#7
Shake Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Folding@Home in upstate NY Posts: 14,394	Other than for the humor factor, why do us infidels even go there at all? From what I've seen of those forums, we're going to be hard pressed to change the thinking of them over there. We might win over some fence-sitters, but the true fundies will just resist all the stronger for our attacks of logic (no matter how sound or strong). You know how they are. I really feel my efforts and time are better spent with the fence-sitters that have come here to see what they can find out.

11-17-2002, 01:00 PM	#8
The Naked Mage Veteran Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: The Execution State, USA Posts: 5,031	My good friend Shake here is right. Hard-core Fundies are like natural disasters; you should deal with them just by staying the hell away from them.

11-17-2002, 03:19 PM	#10
Primordial Groove Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Earth Posts: 1,570	Hey Amie, you want to come over and have a 'revelation'?

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