Kevbo

I just want to see the Jewish/Christian/Muslim point of view, if any care to answer. From my point of view, it seems sadistic that God would set up humans to fail and then hold it against them. How is this rationalized within your respective religion?

TiConTiki

Sadistic is a mild term for a Creator that gives men free will and then punishes them for using it.

If He wants only the 'good' and 'righteous' to be in heaven - He should have only created them that way.

And what I find even a more interesting question - is that after all the goody-goodys are in Heaven - can they sin?

Or do they no longer have any free will?

And if they DO sin - will they fall and this whole damn scenario start playing out again?

No one ever talks about free will in Heaven - but if it is there - sin is sure to follow.

Magus55

He didn't set it up for them to fail. Did He know they would? Yes, He is omniscient, but He warned humans about the consequence of disobeying, and we didn't listen. Not His fault we used our God given free will to be stupid.

TiConTiki

What makes you so sure he didn't set it up that way? Did He tell you?

If He is Omniscient - and knows that some of the people he is creating will go to Hell - - -and then he creates them anyway -

He is one sadistic dude. Nobody on Earth has ever been THAT mean.

Bobzammel

The Jewish people believe the "Fall" is mainly mankind taking on new responsibilites as a consequence of learning knowledge of good and evil.

Magus55

Yes He did tell me. And He created humanity out of love. And despite being rejected, ignored, disobeyed, violated by sin, insulted, hated, despised etc. He STILL came to earth, walked among us sinners, and died for us, by our hands. And again on earth, he was ridiculed, insulted, hated, spit on, brutally beaten, and tortured by the very people He came to save. If you think giving his mortal life away to save us, and enduring all that when He never had to, is sadistic, you got issues.

Kevbo

The thing I can't possibly understand, and wanted a monotheist perspective on, is this:

If God is omnipotent and omniscient, when He created the universe he knew exactly what was going to happen at the instant the universe was created. If He was free to create any number of different universes (which logically follows with the whole omnipotence deal), that means He specifically set up the human race to disobey him. He also created suffering, pain, and everything that is considered "evil." Since He knew what He was setting up the universe, everyone who goes to Hell, if Hell exists, does so with His blessing. Basically He predestined the entire universe and the humans that will go to each respective place of reward/punishment.

Suppose I put a juicy piece of meat out in plain view on the floor of my kitchen. I know that my dog is going to walk by and eat it. I wait until she comes by and finishes the meat, and then I step forward and beat her for doing so. I then proceed to tell her that I will continue beating her for the rest of eternity unless she grovels at my feet and performs assorted tricks. Is this not sadism?

I honestly don't understand how this is rationalized within the respective belief systems I mentioned, could someone provide with a dissenting view?

Kevbo

As I explained in my last post, God, if He truly is omnipotent, could have created any reality He wanted to, which means that He officially sanctioned the existence of the universe we live in. That means that He created this universe for the purpose of doing the things you mentioned. Can you provide an answer to this, because that's really what I was getting at when I started this topic.

Peace,
-Kevin

Baidarka

In 1898 Dr. Fridtjof Nansen published his book Eskimo Life. Chapter XIV is titled The Introduction of Christianity.

Here is a quote from that Chapter. The story is quoted from another book by a Christian Missionary named Paul Egede

“A girl was beaten by her priest, ‘because she could not believe that God was so cruel as he represented him to be; he had said that all her forefathers were with Tornarssuk, and were to be tortured for eternity, because they did not know God.’ She tried to defend them by suggesting that they knew no better, whereupon he lost his temper; and when she at last said ‘ that it was horrible for her to learn that God was so terribly angry with those who sinned that he could never forgive them, as even wicked men will sometimes do,’ he gave her a beating.”

TiConTiki

You say He created humanity out of love and yet - how can it be loving to create something that you know you will punish for all eternity?

And you point out that He gave His mortal life to save us- but it was Him that created the rules that made us in need of being saved in the first place.

For you and I - mere mortals - giving our mortal life would seem quite a sacrifice - but for God who can have as many mortal incarnations as He pleases whenever and wherever he chooses - it does not seem quite such a sacrifice. And certainly being crucified would be horrifically painful - but millions of folks have suffered far more painful deaths.

Just think of the little children now in Iraq who have lost their arms and legs - and the physical pain they are suffering. Jesus did not suffer that much. Think of those who died under torture during the Inquisitions. Having one's skin peeled from their body and immersed in hot oil or burned at the stake - or being drawn and quartered.

Crucifixtion pales in comparision to some modes of suffering.

And certainly God knew before He EVER created man (being Omniscient) that at one point He would sacrifice His own mortal life for them - so He planned it all along. That just doesn't really seem sacrifical at all to me. Kinda like commiting suicide.