ELECTROGOD

There is a hell...Hell, Michigan.
You can go there, you can suffer there and you can die there.
You can also have a really good time there if you try!
I'm sure that there are lots of Christians there too.

Kosh

Well said. Should we start a thread on why
religion is the perfect con job?

MortalWombat

The heaven/hell part at least is the perfect con job, because there isn't going to be anyone coming back from the dead to say "Hey, you were wrong, there's no life after death"

davidH

True, but read the parable in the Bible about the person who asked to come back and tell his brothers so that they wouldn't have to come to hell. - He wasn't allowed.

The Bible clearly teaches that there is a Hell. It is real and there is suffering there.
Everyone is in the race - because the race is life.

Don't get me wrong - I don't like the idea of there being a Hell but the fact remains that there has to be a hell. If there wasn't a Hell then God wouldn't be just.
He is a loving God, he did everything possible so that unbelievers wouldn't have to go to Hell except one thing - make your desicion. God lets us chose, he's done his part and all that is left is for you to make your part.

If the Bible is true, if God is real then where are you going?

I believe the God of the Bible is real, because of the miracles Jesus did- if he hadn't existed and done all the miracles would anyone of that time in Jerusalem have followed the Christian faith? Of course not, they would have laughed and mocked - remember we preach a risen saviour - why would people of that time believe in the ressurection of the dead, surely that would be totally obserd to them! The reason they beleived was that the preaching was accompainied by miracles, people where healed, the lame walked, the dead where raised to life.
There can be no other explanation of why the Christian faith started - people believed because they saw that it was true.

You go try and start a religion by saying that someone you knew rose from the dead, and before that did miracles in your town and was later killed in your town. Tell that to people in your town and see what answer you get.

Do you really think it would have been possible to decieve the Jewish people by saying that a man who did miracles walked their countyside and was in their towns when actually he didn't exist? There can be no other explanation - think about it.

Jesus was also prophecied about in the old testament written years before he was born.

Humour me and read about Jesus cruficition in;

John 19 v 23-27
Luke 23 v 32-49
Mark 15 v 34.

Then read Psalm 22, Isaiah 53.

Please read these.

Maybe these verses are all pure chance and they just happened to fit. - What do you think?

echidna

FWIW, I used to have no belief in Hell. For me either there was omni-benevolent god, or nothing at all, an afterlife was either good or nothing at all.

I now have a concept of hell which I will never forget. It’s an emotional concept, completely irrational, but that doesn’t make it any less real for me unfortunately.

But on a lighter note, I think you’ll find quite a comprehensive definition of Hell here :

<a href="http://www.theonion.com/onion3408/tenthcircle.html" target="_blank">http://www.theonion.com/onion3408/tenthcircle.html</a>

Muad'Dib

"If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone rises from the dead," Luke 16:31, NRSV. An unfortunate error on Luke's part; if I saw someone who was clearly dead raised from the dead, there's no question that I would believe--or at least view Christianity as credible. (By the way, the rich man was in Hades, not hell.)

There are Christians here who would disagree with you. Perhaps you could elucidate this point further?

I don't understand what you mean by this.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but how does eternal torment constitute any kind of justice?

What is my part, and why can't Christians agree on what that part is?

Well, that depends on God, doesn't it?

"I believe that Avalokiteshvara, the Bodhisattva of Compassion, is real, because of the miracles he did- if he hadn't existed and done all the miracles would anyone of that time in Tibet have followed the Buddhist faith? Of course not, they would have laughed and mocked - remember we preach an active avatar - why would people of that time believe in the enlightenment of the living and dead, surely that would be totally absurd to them! The reason they believed was that the preaching was accompanied by miracles, people were healed, the lame walked, the dead were reborn.

There can be no other explanation of why the Tibetan Buddhist faith started - people believed because they saw that it was true."

As you can see, yours is not the only religion that claims to be founded on divine acts. (By the way, I am not Buddhist.)

Many cult leaders have done similar things with prolific results.

Who said he didn't exist?

There are hordes of other explanations - think about it. A few off the top of my head:

• Jesus was a deliberate liar.
• Jesus was crazy. (Edited to add: "crazy" is insensitive to those who are legitimately mentally ill, and I apologize to anyone who may have been offended. I should have said "misguided" instead.)
• Jesus was a decent fellow whose followers took things further than he intended after his death--not maliciously or dishonestly, but without concern for the actual facts.

I've read all of these many times. Why do you assume that people here haven't?

More or less. OT prophecies are vague enough that it's often hard to say what they refer to; and it's not obvious that all passages quoted as propheces actually are (for instance, Psalm 22).

While we're on the topic of the gospel accounts, I'm curious to hear your answer to this: who did Peter deny Jesus to? Each gospel has Jesus saying that Peter will deny him 3 times; so who were those three people (or groups of people)?

[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: Muad'Dib ]</p>

Kosh

Uh huh. If he wasn't allowed to come back, how
do you know? Oh yeah, Jeebus told that one, right?

"That' ridiculous. If he was dying he wouldn't
have written auuuuuuuuuuuugggggggggggghhhhhhh,
he would have just said it!"
- Monty Python's Holy Grail

Of course, this is exactly the type of manipulative response you would expect from a
con job.

YOu think they'd have given EVERYONE the rule
book, rather than just God's "chosen" ones....

Brainwashing. If he was just, he'd give us more
than circumstantial evidence (I don't even think
the Bible qualifies as that!).

I believe that people who try to get in on
Pascal's Wager will be pulled out of line (and
into hell) first!

And what of the documented miracles in other
religions? Or the many other "miracle" workers
of Jesus' time?

WERE YOU THERE?

Should we apply the same test to the followers of
Jim Jones? David Koresh?

You mean, like the millions of Jews who didn't
become Christians?

They're goat herders who think their God gave
them a desert....

Not true. See the Sec Web lib area on prophecies.
This, BTW, is one of the major reasons Jews deny
Jesus. They know their own book...

Muad'Dib

Wasn't there a thread in MRD on this a while back?

excreationist

For lots of information about hell see:
<a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/aft_bibl.htm" target="_blank">ReligiousTolerance.org - Interpretation of Biblical Passages about the Afterlife</a>

In particular, <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/aft_bibl1.htm" target="_blank">Liberal interpretations of Biblical passages about the afterlife (623 BCE to 1 CE)</a>, about the origin of concept of hell.

Kosh

Hmmm. I started one on the parrallels between
Christianity and Cult manipulation. Is that what
you're thinking of?

Anyway, davidH, since the stuff you posted is
basically a regurgiation of Strobel's "A case for
Christ", you might want to read up on this first
before this goes any further...

<a href="http://www.magi.com/~oblio/jesus/StrobelIntro.htm" target="_blank">http://www.magi.com/~oblio/jesus/StrobelIntro.htm</a>