Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Talulah · 02-25-2002, 09:34 AM

Hello,

I am new. This is first time I have posted. I was raised in the Church of Christ and am just coming out of that belief system. I have been reading the bible lately with new eyes and would like some comments on the idea of Hell, its impact and origin. My main issue is that I know I don't believe the bible to be infallible and my belief in any 'God' is rather iffy but I am still scared of that everlasting torment that is called hell. Please remember that I am very, very new to these ideas and still feel rather leery. Also helpful would be any list of things in the bible that are scientifically untrue or impossible as well as historically inaccurate.

Thanks,
Talulah

Clarice · 02-25-2002, 10:48 AM

Hi there. I'm no biblical scholar, but here's a tidbit that might make you feel better.

Even the bible states that there is no afterlife:

Quote:

From the book of Ecclesiastes:

3:19
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

3:20
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

3:21
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

9:10
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might;for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

02-25-2002, 11:14 AM

Hell must be big in the Church of Christ if that is your first concern after leaving the Church.

Hell is opposite to heaven and neither can be conceived to exist without the other. They are mythical concepts, but real nonetheless, and you can only end up in heaven or hell if you "enter the race." So no hell for Buddhist and no hell for atheists would be a good conclusion. Opposite this is that heaven is also not available to them but then, if "cold" is OK who really cares . . . unless you do.

[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]

Gringo · 02-25-2002, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos:
Hell is opposite to heaven and neither can be conceived to exist without the other. They are mythical concepts, but real nonetheless, and you can only end up in heaven or hell if you "enter the race." So no hell for Buddhist and no hell for atheists would be a good conclusion. Opposite this is that heaven is also not available to them but then, if "cold" is OK who really cares . . . unless you do.

Amos,

I have to respectfully disagree on the points that you make about heaven and hell. There are anihilists who believe that the wicked just die like dogs and never wake up, while the saints are resurrected. People who hold to conditional immortality like Seventh Day Adventist see hell as merely the grave, but yet they believe in a Lake of Fire that will punish and eventually destroy the wicked, while the saints will live forever in heaven.

According to the Bible, everyone or nearly everyone, great and small, will be raised up to face the Judgement. The only reason I say nearly is because of what I perceive as a suggestive statement in Daniel 12:2, which seems to indicate that not everyone will rise.

Revelation lists unbelievers among the groups being cast into the Lake of Fire. What does it mean to enter the race? Whether we're milling around the gate or hauling butt after Truth, it seems to me we are either all in the race or none of us are in the race. But we're in this thing together. If hell is only mythical, then the only meaning it would have is personal anguish here in this life, such as sweating an eternal place of torment on one's deathbed.

[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Gringo ]

Paradisedreams2 · 02-25-2002, 09:01 PM

First off I say if it don't feel good leave

Second if Christ fulfilled the prophesies There is no longer any hell.

Death and Hell in the book of Revelation are cast into the lake of fire.

In the letters to the seven churches this is called the second death (again being called the second death when its cast in)

This second death will NOT hurt you(though they tell you otherwise, especially the "experts" Its not suppose to hurt you. Daniel is seen in this picture of "fire" himself with His freinds and one like the son of man (Christ supposedly) and here is the picture of the second death.

The letters to the seven churches borrows Daniel's langage again saying "they were NOT hurt". Its kind of like "picture hunting".

What is this fire? Scriptures say "Is not my word a fire" so the picture of hell seen is consumed into THIS fire. Why? Both the word and the "fire" to be are seen as "Eternal"...

There ya go The eternal fire of God words coming to pass at the cross devouring and consuming Hell.... No more hell all gone "toodles" "later on" "poof". Thats my theology

Can you believe people hate me for this?

Ya tell them they'll fry , they hate cha. You tell them your not gonna fry, they hate cha.

I can't win myself I see a no win situation here.

The only "torment" in that is knowing a great God who won't fry you while everyone around you is saying, "Hes good BUT he'll fry you".

The epistles don't know what they are talking about. Ignore them they didn't see it finished and expected more.

Might I suggest leaving the church (it does wonders for you), 12 years out myself and I've never been the better for it. Walk by your own convictions thats where truth is, don't let anybody tell you other wise.

Have a drink, relax and enjoy life its too short

[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Paradisedreams2 ]

02-25-2002, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gringo:


According to the Bible, everyone or nearly everyone, great and small, will be raised up to face the Judgement. The only reason I say nearly is because of what I perceive as a suggestive statement in Daniel 12:2, which seems to indicate that not everyone will rise.

Revelation lists unbelievers among the groups being cast into the Lake of Fire. What does it mean to enter the race? Whether we're milling around the gate or hauling butt after Truth, it seems to me we are either all in the race or none of us are in the race. But we're in this thing together. If hell is only mythical, then the only meaning it would have is personal anguish here in this life, such as sweating an eternal place of torment on one's deathbed.

[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Gringo ]

Thanks Gringo and I will try to explain.

In my view everyone will be raised up to face judgement because when we die we will have to surrender our ego because it can never outlive our soul. This means that heaven is life on earth without an ego, or at least, without the enslavement to pleasures sought by the ego. This also means that when we physically die heaven ends.

My distinction is between "enter" and "chosen." Some religious people never become engaged in the race and so they do not enter. We enter the race when we are called and we can only complete the race when we have been chosen. Those not called are cold, those called but do not complete are lukewarm and those that complete the race are hot.

We enter when we become born again. There are two ways to become born again. One is to be called from carnal desire and another is to be chosen by God (Jn.1:13). Based on this can we not complete when we enter from carnal desire (not chosen to enter but we volunteer) and will complete the race only when God chose us (like a thief in the night).

If heaven ends when we physically die our second death (the first death was our ego) so will hell end when we die our second death. So now both heaven and hell are part of this life while we are alive on this planet called earth.

The deathbed scene often deals with the surrender of the ego.

[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]

Marduk · 02-26-2002, 03:55 PM

Well now the Pope says Hell is merely separation from God, and not a furnace of some sort, but the feeling is just as bad.
I once did a word scan of the Gospels and to my surprise the word appears not at all in John's Gospel, only twice in Mark, and 8 times in Mat. & Luke. And the word is translated from the Hebrew or Aramaic 'Gehenna', which was an actual part of old Jerusalem (a place where trash was burned).
Jesus hardly seemed like a fire and brimstone type preacher, at least not from what I remember of the Sermon on the Mount etc. seemed like a rather pleasant fellow for the most part. And the only prayer he taught, The Lord's Prayer, says nothing about "and please don't throw me in an oven when I'm dead".
Most of the Hell stuff is from Revalations and other questionable NT writings. You'd think if there really was such a place and it meant an eternity of cooking, Jesus would have been a little more clear and emphatic about it. When in fact he says little, eg. "Don't call someone a fool or ye RISK the judgement" "Judge not lest ye be judged" sounds like something fairly easy to avoid.
I don't remember where Jesus says "Listen punk, if you don't have a personal relationship with me you're gonna fry see! FRY! forever! right under the ground, like you sir over there!"

RyanS2 · 02-27-2002, 04:10 AM

Hell is also completely missing from the doctrine of Paul as well. This is a curiosity, because Paul was supposed to be the "Gentile preacher", and the doctrine of hell probably would have been a strong conversionary tool.

Most of the references to "Hell" occur in the Old Testament, a translation between "Sheol", (grave), and "Gehenna", (A place). The Bible I have by the Jewish Publication Society doesn't have hell in it, and the translations that it gives seem to rule out the ideology behind "hell".

Gehenna was where the Israelites practiced human sacrifice, (mulk offerings) to YHWH, (look for the thread: "Was Jesus Sinless"), and it's somehow doubtful that this would become an ideal for "hell". As per Micah, Moses (exception of the Deuteronomy history), Ezekiel, etc., human sacrifice was the highest offering to YHWH.

In the New Testament, I believe the words used are "Tartarus", (greek mythological prison for the Titans), and "Gehenna" aforementioned.

Malaclypse the Younger · 02-27-2002, 09:02 AM

Talulah

Welcome to the board! I'm SingleDad from the CofC board. I'm sure PK will welcome you here as well; I'll be sure to tell her when I see her again.

Please feel free to email or IM me any time.

Malaclypse the Younger · 02-27-2002, 09:09 AM

More to the point, keep in mind that, while I have not studied the bible in any great detail, it seems that it is sufficiently vague, ambiguous and internally contradictory that you can prove most anything you care to prove; it's all dependent on imposing some arbitrary interpretive scheme (hermaneutic) on the text.

Thus you see the varying interpretations of "hell", from existence to non-existence and everything in between. It's certainly possible to interpret the bible to mean that everyone is going to hell except 144,000 people chosen arbitrarily by Yahweh, in which case odds are we're all screwed, no matter what we do or profess to believe.

[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: Malaclypse the Younger ]

02-25-2002, 09:34 AM	#1
Talulah Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Beautiful Colorado Posts: 682	Concepts of Hell Hello, I am new. This is first time I have posted. I was raised in the Church of Christ and am just coming out of that belief system. I have been reading the bible lately with new eyes and would like some comments on the idea of Hell, its impact and origin. My main issue is that I know I don't believe the bible to be infallible and my belief in any 'God' is rather iffy but I am still scared of that everlasting torment that is called hell. Please remember that I am very, very new to these ideas and still feel rather leery. Also helpful would be any list of things in the bible that are scientifically untrue or impossible as well as historically inaccurate. Thanks, Talulah

02-25-2002, 11:14 AM	#3
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	Hell must be big in the Church of Christ if that is your first concern after leaving the Church. Hell is opposite to heaven and neither can be conceived to exist without the other. They are mythical concepts, but real nonetheless, and you can only end up in heaven or hell if you "enter the race." So no hell for Buddhist and no hell for atheists would be a good conclusion. Opposite this is that heaven is also not available to them but then, if "cold" is OK who really cares . . . unless you do. [ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

02-25-2002, 09:01 PM	#5
Paradisedreams2 Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pa Posts: 113	First off I say if it don't feel good leave Second if Christ fulfilled the prophesies There is no longer any hell. Death and Hell in the book of Revelation are cast into the lake of fire. In the letters to the seven churches this is called the second death (again being called the second death when its cast in) This second death will NOT hurt you(though they tell you otherwise, especially the "experts" Its not suppose to hurt you. Daniel is seen in this picture of "fire" himself with His freinds and one like the son of man (Christ supposedly) and here is the picture of the second death. The letters to the seven churches borrows Daniel's langage again saying "they were NOT hurt". Its kind of like "picture hunting". What is this fire? Scriptures say "Is not my word a fire" so the picture of hell seen is consumed into THIS fire. Why? Both the word and the "fire" to be are seen as "Eternal"... There ya go The eternal fire of God words coming to pass at the cross devouring and consuming Hell.... No more hell all gone "toodles" "later on" "poof". Thats my theology Can you believe people hate me for this? Ya tell them they'll fry , they hate cha. You tell them your not gonna fry, they hate cha. I can't win myself I see a no win situation here. The only "torment" in that is knowing a great God who won't fry you while everyone around you is saying, "Hes good BUT he'll fry you". The epistles don't know what they are talking about. Ignore them they didn't see it finished and expected more. Might I suggest leaving the church (it does wonders for you), 12 years out myself and I've never been the better for it. Walk by your own convictions thats where truth is, don't let anybody tell you other wise. Have a drink, relax and enjoy life its too short [ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Paradisedreams2 ]</p>

02-27-2002, 09:09 AM	#10
Malaclypse the Younger Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: nowhere Posts: 416	More to the point, keep in mind that, while I have not studied the bible in any great detail, it seems that it is sufficiently vague, ambiguous and internally contradictory that you can prove most anything you care to prove; it's all dependent on imposing some arbitrary interpretive scheme (hermaneutic) on the text. Thus you see the varying interpretations of "hell", from existence to non-existence and everything in between. It's certainly possible to interpret the bible to mean that everyone is going to hell except 144,000 people chosen arbitrarily by Yahweh, in which case odds are we're all screwed, no matter what we do or profess to believe. [ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: Malaclypse the Younger ]</p>

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02-26-2002, 03:55 PM	#7
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	Well now the Pope says Hell is merely separation from God, and not a furnace of some sort, but the feeling is just as bad. I once did a word scan of the Gospels and to my surprise the word appears not at all in John's Gospel, only twice in Mark, and 8 times in Mat. & Luke. And the word is translated from the Hebrew or Aramaic 'Gehenna', which was an actual part of old Jerusalem (a place where trash was burned). Jesus hardly seemed like a fire and brimstone type preacher, at least not from what I remember of the Sermon on the Mount etc. seemed like a rather pleasant fellow for the most part. And the only prayer he taught, The Lord's Prayer, says nothing about "and please don't throw me in an oven when I'm dead". Most of the Hell stuff is from Revalations and other questionable NT writings. You'd think if there really was such a place and it meant an eternity of cooking, Jesus would have been a little more clear and emphatic about it. When in fact he says little, eg. "Don't call someone a fool or ye RISK the judgement" "Judge not lest ye be judged" sounds like something fairly easy to avoid. I don't remember where Jesus says "Listen punk, if you don't have a personal relationship with me you're gonna fry see! FRY! forever! right under the ground, like you sir over there!"

02-27-2002, 04:10 AM	#8
RyanS2 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Louisiana Posts: 216	Hell is also completely missing from the doctrine of Paul as well. This is a curiosity, because Paul was supposed to be the "Gentile preacher", and the doctrine of hell probably would have been a strong conversionary tool. Most of the references to "Hell" occur in the Old Testament, a translation between "Sheol", (grave), and "Gehenna", (A place). The Bible I have by the Jewish Publication Society doesn't have hell in it, and the translations that it gives seem to rule out the ideology behind "hell". Gehenna was where the Israelites practiced human sacrifice, (mulk offerings) to YHWH, (look for the thread: "Was Jesus Sinless"), and it's somehow doubtful that this would become an ideal for "hell". As per Micah, Moses (exception of the Deuteronomy history), Ezekiel, etc., human sacrifice was the highest offering to YHWH. In the New Testament, I believe the words used are "Tartarus", (greek mythological prison for the Titans), and "Gehenna" aforementioned.

02-27-2002, 09:02 AM	#9
Malaclypse the Younger Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: nowhere Posts: 416	Talulah Welcome to the board! I'm SingleDad from the CofC board. I'm sure PK will welcome you here as well; I'll be sure to tell her when I see her again. Please feel free to email or IM me any time.

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