emur

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Originally posted by emur
No loving father would allow any of his children to hurt other children of his, using his name, and do nothing. Call it what you want, but it isn't loving.
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Posted by LuckyCharm:
I didn't say prevent and I didn't suggest mind control. I said prod, convict - that sort of thing. Although from your post, you seem to take the bible at least somewhat seriously, and on numerous occasions in it we are told that God did intervene or threaten to intervene to bring about a certain result. (The blessings and curses in Deuteronomy, the killing of 185,000 Assyrian soldiers near Jerusalem, the genocide of the Amalekites, Ananias and Sapphira, to mention some).

So if you believe in the biblical God, then he could intervene, even if all he were to do would be to make it clear that his followers are wrong to hurt others. No biggie really. No mind control. No physical restraint.

Now you are sounding a lot like Job's friends. Remember what God supposedly said to them.

Being that I am not omniscient, I cannot know for certain what is happening in another person's soul. But I can have a good idea by his/her actions. And many Christians, by their actions, don't show the activity of God in their lives - assuming he is loving and interventionist in the first place.

I require an accounting because I am a thinking, feeling human being supposedly loved by God in the Christian way of thinking. And if I am supposed to believe that God loves me, then I can expect to see it. I don't see it though.

As I said in the previous thread, being an evangelical Christian minister opened my eyes big time to the problem of an interventionist, loving God. I've seen too much and had too much happen to me to accept platitudes. In my experience, if there is a God, he is not interventionist.

"Thus says the Lord of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel...Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey'." (1 Samuel 15:2-3)

"But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other Gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall surely perish...I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendents, by loving the Lord your God, by obeying his voice, and by holding fast to him;" (Deuteronomy 30:17-20)

Sounds bloody and manipulative doesn't it?

Mel

beyelzu

when my christian friends used to criticize my atheism. i would just say that i invited god to come watch a football game with me. the invitation was rsvp and i made all sort of food, but god didnt come and the steelers lost the superbowl. what kind of god would allow that.

i think that god could just make one personal appearance to everyone saying something like" hi, i am god, very busy right now, be good, talk to you later, oh btw, quit killing each other thats wrong." but xians just argue that if god appeared we would be robbed of freewill.

LuckyCharm

I'm being deployed and don't know when I'll have a chance to reply. Maybe never. :-)

Hugs to all,

~Cheryl

winstonjen

Of course god isn't a loving father - look what he did to Jesus.

emur

Oh well, I was looking forward to LuckyCharm's reply. If anyone else wants to reply, feel free to do so.

Beyelzu,
Free will seems to be the fall back position, doesn't it? It provides a nice "out" so that one doesn't have to deal with things that don't line up.

Mel

LuckyCharm

They say flattery will get you everywhere....

Oh, but He does, He does!! I have personal experience with this, and I'm sure many others would say the same. Do we always heed that little inner voice, though? Most certainly not -- Christians are human, too, and like all human beings, we tend to excuse, rationalize and deny our own bad behavior. 1 Thess 5:19 warns us not to "quench the Spirit." Why would this warning be necessary if it weren't a continual temptation, when we are looking for every possible reason to do things our own selfish way?

Thank you. I do take it very seriously.

*just nods*

And because God has intervened in some cases, you feel He is bound to do so in every case? That would lead to the type of control we're talking about.

God has made it clear that we are not to hurt others:

"You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor," etc. (Deut 5:17-20)

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matt 5:21-22)

"And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Eph 4:32)

"He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?" (Micah 6:8)

"Because he did not remember to show mercy, But persecuted the poor and needy man, That he might even slay the broken in heart. As he loved cursing, so let it come to him; As he did not delight in blessing, so let it be far from him." (Ps 109:16-17)

These are obviously just a very few random examples. Open a Bible to any page, and chances are you'll find some exhortation to deal fairly and compassionately with others.

God isn't going to enforce proper behavior on us, though. Sometimes He will intervene, and sometimes not, for whatever His reasons, just as a loving parent might bail a rebellious teenager out of jail once, maybe even twice. Will he do it a third time? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe this would be a good opportunity to teach a lesson in responsibility and consequences...

What I said was, "Do you know what trials and agonies await Osama bin Laden, or Hitler, or me, or even yourself, on account of the wicked choices we have made?" I don't see how Job's friends were saying anything like this. What they were doing was trying to explain Job's terrible misfortunes by accusing him of sin. What God said to them was, "My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has. Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, go to My servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and My servant Job shall pray for you. For I will accept him, lest I deal with you according to your folly; because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has." (Job 42:7-8) Their folly was in speaking wrongly about God. How callous do you have to be to look a man in the eye and tell him his children are dead because God wants to punish him for his own sins?

I am reminded of a quote I read once, to the effect that while we might stand by and sneer at someone's impatience, greed, or concupiscence, how are we to know but that he doesn't go home at night and shed hot tears at having once again been beaten by his most trying temptation? How would you like to be judged by the measure with which you judge others? "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone..."

So sentience automatically confers the right to have all your questions answered? That's a rather arrogant attitude, don't you think?

I am sure you've heard of the research suggesting that plants can feel pain, haven't you? In other words, they have a limited "sentience." In fact, I would submit that their level of sentience is closer to our own than ours is to God's, if that makes any sense. Now, if this is true, I suppose I owe my salad an explanation for why I am stabbing it with a fork and chewing it. But it's not going to get one, because there is simply no way to make a piece of lettuce understand that, left alone, it would soon rot and putrify. But, by being eaten, it will be transformed into physical energy that I will use to accomplish brilliant and wonderful things in the world. Would the lettuce be consoled to know that even though its outer form is being destroyed (which it would have been anyway!), its ultimate destiny is far more glorious than it could ever imagine? What does a piece of lettuce know about defending my country's freedom? And do I really care what it thinks about that, anyway?

"The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork." (Ps 8:1) For those who believe in God, all of creation is a testament to His love. The very fact that I am sitting here typing on a keyboard, translating abstract concepts into 1's and 0's, while my bodily processes go on quietly in the background, oxygenating and nourishing my cells, is simply breathtaking for anyone with any capacity at all for wonder. We have become far too jaded for all that, though. We have lost our childlike ability to marvel at the miracle of our own lives... "Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will by no means enter it." (Luke 18:17) How true this is! Heaven is all around us -- but you'll never realize it if your eyes and heart are closed to it. "Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive." (Matt 13:14)

What can I say to this? I have had a very different experience of God's providence in my own life... I am sorry to hear about yours.

If someone were holding a knife to your throat and I came along with a rifle, saying "Drop the knife, or I will kill you" -- yeah, I guess that's pretty bloody and manipulative, too. But is it righteous? I think you would agree it is.

God knows how we are made. We are designed, as my denomination teaches, to love and serve Him. Anything else leads to death and destruction by default. God wants us to have life, and love, and joy, and peace -- he earnestly desires that for us!

Which do you think is more loving: a doctor who would sugar-coat his diagnosis and tell you nothing is wrong, when you actually need emergency surgery to survive, or one who tells you plainly, "Do this, or you will die"?

~~Cheryl

winstonjen

Depends what their motives are, and whether the advice is good or not.

If you believe that the 'emergency surgery' is believing in god, then it is just a form of Pascal's wager.

happyboy

if God is loving then i'm a sentient sea sponge with earth-shattering psychic powers.......

happyboy

braces_for_impact

By Cheryl:

What a horrible analogy. If the surgeon created the disease, knew the patient would get it beforehand, could have prevented it but did not and then accused the patient of catching it by being unhygienic and demanded emergency surgery, that might be more appropriate.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

And don't even get me started on Job...
:banghead:

winstonjen

I'll start for you, then.

God enjoys punishing good people because he thinks they're having too good of a life - a 'free ride'. That, and a bet with the devil. You'd think god would be more resistant to temptation. :boohoo: