Freethought & Rationalism Archive

davidH · 07-07-2002, 05:04 AM

Could anyone on this board sincerely tell me if there is any evidence that has been found to show that the Israelites were in Egypt and that the Exodus did take place?

Vorkosigan · 07-07-2002, 05:56 AM

Biblical Archaeology Review has been having conniption fits about Exodus for the past few years and has published several articles from Christians who feel put upon that their mythology is getting treated with the same cold eye as everyone else's.

<a href="http://www.bib-arch.org/bswbBreakingIllSpecial2.html" target="_blank">Here's one response</a>

<a href="http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/8ta/8ta044.html" target="_blank">And another counterattack</a>

The evidence is not all yet in, but it appears that solid evidence of Exodus does not currently exist.

If you put the two words *minimalists Exodus* into Google, about a million sites will fall out.

Vorkosigan

bonduca · 07-07-2002, 06:16 AM

This might see more action in Misc. Religion.

davidH · 07-08-2002, 04:35 AM

So I take it then that everyone here believes that the exodus didn't take place?

Marduk · 07-08-2002, 07:08 AM

"So I take it then that everyone here believes that the exodus didn't take place?"

At least not the way it is portrayed in the Bible or the Movie with Charleton Heston. Over a million people walking through a split ocean, wandering in the Desert etc etc.
I'm sure it's possible that some people, whose descendents later became Hebrews, once lived in Egypt and did manual labor building cities for some Pharoah. There are too many problems with the Bible account that contradict what we know of those times.
No remains of anyone or anything in the desert.
No evidense that the Egyptians enslaved anyone but captured soldiers, and they went to copper mines, and after a certain time were offered the choice of becomming Egyptian Citizens or going back to their homeland.
At the supposed time of the Exodus there were only about 3 million people in all of Egypt, and the rermains of the workers camps where the city of Ramses was built are nowhere near large enough for hundreds of thousands of 'slaves'
Ramses II lived to be in his 90's had over 100 children and was a very popular and successful King, he fought the Hittites to a drwaw, I'm sure his enemies would have loved it if his whole army was drowned by someones pissed off god.

Godless Dave · 07-08-2002, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidH:
<strong>So I take it then that everyone here believes that the exodus didn't take place?</strong>

"Believes"? No. I think the exodus probably didn't take place because current archeaological and documentary evidence doesn't support it. But if further evidence comes to light I'll change what I think. I don't have an emotional or intellectual investment in it either way, other than a general curiosity about history.

DarkBronzePlant · 07-08-2002, 07:32 AM

I've been reading Karen Armstrong's A History of God (which I strongly recommend to anyone here, particularly theists.) I don't have the book in front of me at the moment. But what I remember of her take was that there were various disjointed tribes that had basically joined together with little in common except their agreement to believe in and worship Yahweh. The union of these tribes is what eventually became Israel. One of these tribes had claimed that they were imprisoned/enslaved in Egypt and had escaped; this escape was later attributed to Yahweh.

davidH · 07-08-2002, 09:43 AM

"Believes"? No. I think the exodus probably didn't take place because current archeaological and documentary evidence doesn't support it.

I'm not so sure about that - I'll show you why later on.

Quote:

At the supposed time of the Exodus there were only about 3 million people in all of Egypt, and the rermains of the workers camps where the city of Ramses was built are nowhere near large enough for hundreds of thousands of 'slaves'
Ramses II lived to be in his 90's had over 100 children and was a very popular and successful King, he fought the Hittites to a drwaw, I'm sure his enemies would have loved it if his whole army was drowned by someones pissed off god.

You've got the wrong date here. The Exodus took place before this.
1 Kings 6 v 1

Quote:

In the 480th year after the Israelites had come out of Egypt, in the 4th year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, the 2nd month, he began to build the temple of the Lord.

The date of Solomon's temple was 960 BC. So do the math and you get the date 1440 BC.

Quote:

At the supposed time of the Exodus there were only about 3 million people in all of Egypt, and the rermains of the workers camps where the city of Ramses was built are nowhere near large enough for hundreds of thousands of 'slaves'

So hence the reason why the camps weren't large enough - the Israelites weren't there.

I have come across some really interesting stuff - evidience that it did happen.
I'll post it up later on for you all - there's a lot of it so I'll do it bit by bit and so it can be properly discussed and other evidience added.

But it is very very interesting.

Marduk · 07-08-2002, 03:00 PM

"The date of Solomon's temple was 960 BC. So do the math and you get the date 1440 BC."

But this date puts you around the time of the beginning of "Egypt's Golden Age" When the Egyptians got an army together and through out the Hyksos, foreigners who had gained control of Egypt and ruled for a hundred years or so. This IS an Exodus of sorts, they were booted out!

Kosh · 07-09-2002, 05:09 AM

Let's see your evidence, David.

[ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: Kosh ]</p>

07-07-2002, 05:04 AM	#1
davidH Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: N.Ireland Posts: 527	Evidence that the Israelite Exodus did take place Could anyone on this board sincerely tell me if there is any evidence that has been found to show that the Israelites were in Egypt and that the Exodus did take place?

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07-07-2002, 05:56 AM	#2
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Biblical Archaeology Review has been having conniption fits about Exodus for the past few years and has published several articles from Christians who feel put upon that their mythology is getting treated with the same cold eye as everyone else's. <a href="http://www.bib-arch.org/bswbBreakingIllSpecial2.html" target="_blank">Here's one response</a> <a href="http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/8ta/8ta044.html" target="_blank">And another counterattack</a> The evidence is not all yet in, but it appears that solid evidence of Exodus does not currently exist. If you put the two words minimalists Exodus into Google, about a million sites will fall out. Vorkosigan

07-07-2002, 06:16 AM	#3
bonduca Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: . Posts: 1,653	This might see more action in Misc. Religion.

07-08-2002, 04:35 AM	#4
davidH Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: N.Ireland Posts: 527	So I take it then that everyone here believes that the exodus didn't take place?

07-08-2002, 07:08 AM	#5
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"So I take it then that everyone here believes that the exodus didn't take place?" At least not the way it is portrayed in the Bible or the Movie with Charleton Heston. Over a million people walking through a split ocean, wandering in the Desert etc etc. I'm sure it's possible that some people, whose descendents later became Hebrews, once lived in Egypt and did manual labor building cities for some Pharoah. There are too many problems with the Bible account that contradict what we know of those times. No remains of anyone or anything in the desert. No evidense that the Egyptians enslaved anyone but captured soldiers, and they went to copper mines, and after a certain time were offered the choice of becomming Egyptian Citizens or going back to their homeland. At the supposed time of the Exodus there were only about 3 million people in all of Egypt, and the rermains of the workers camps where the city of Ramses was built are nowhere near large enough for hundreds of thousands of 'slaves' Ramses II lived to be in his 90's had over 100 children and was a very popular and successful King, he fought the Hittites to a drwaw, I'm sure his enemies would have loved it if his whole army was drowned by someones pissed off god.

07-08-2002, 07:32 AM	#7
DarkBronzePlant Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: San Francisco, CA USA Posts: 3,568	I've been reading Karen Armstrong's A History of God (which I strongly recommend to anyone here, particularly theists.) I don't have the book in front of me at the moment. But what I remember of her take was that there were various disjointed tribes that had basically joined together with little in common except their agreement to believe in and worship Yahweh. The union of these tribes is what eventually became Israel. One of these tribes had claimed that they were imprisoned/enslaved in Egypt and had escaped; this escape was later attributed to Yahweh.

07-08-2002, 03:00 PM	#9
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"The date of Solomon's temple was 960 BC. So do the math and you get the date 1440 BC." But this date puts you around the time of the beginning of "Egypt's Golden Age" When the Egyptians got an army together and through out the Hyksos, foreigners who had gained control of Egypt and ruled for a hundred years or so. This IS an Exodus of sorts, they were booted out!

07-09-2002, 05:09 AM	#10
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	Let's see your evidence, David. [ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: Kosh ]</p>

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