FredJ_UK

There seems to be any number of good, readable and well argued books puting forward atheist views. I, perhaps naively, thought that there would be equivalent deist or Christian books which might be some sort of intellectual challenge from the atheist point of view. So I visited a local Christian bookshop, but (and despite the earnest assistance of the staff) I found nothing that would challenge the capabilities of the average seven year old unbeliever. Can anyone point me towards a book with reasonably convincing theistic propositions to get my teeth into?

Joe Nobody

Your comment is setting off my 'grossly inaccurate exaggeration alert'. Maybe in Staffordshire, England the seven year olds are really intelligent but over here in Waterbury, CT in the USA, I think its safe to say the average 7 year old believes in Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

For both sides try "Does God exist?" The Debate between Theists & Atheists. J.P. Moreland and Kai Nielson with Contributions by Peter Kreeft, Antony Flew, William Lane Craig, Keith parsons and Dallas Williard.

For general apologetics you could try Kreeft and Tacelli's Handbook of Christian Apologetics, Strobels A Case For Christ, Boyd's Letters From A Skeptic, Wilkin's and Moreland's Jesus Under Fire etc., if you are looking for something to refute.

I'd suggesting reading John Polkinghorne's : Belief in God in an age of Science. That may prove difficult to critique.

Will you share with us some of the names of these books?

Joe Nobody

FredJ_UK

I think your detector is a little over-sensitive; it doesn't seem to be able to distinguish between exaggeration and poetic license! I don't think you had any trouble knowing what I meant. And no, I'm not making any special claims for Staffordshire kids, so maybe I should have said 10 rather than 7.

I was thinking of An Intelligent Person's Guide to Atheism (Daniel Harbour), The existence of God (form Macmillan's "Problems of Philosophy" series, Losing faith in Faith (Dan Barker), Nonbelief & Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God, (Theodore M. Drange).

I'll give the one you recommend a try - Polkinghorne - thanks!

Joe Nobody

I don't know about over--but it is sensitive to unnecessary and derogatory comments that do not aid but impede the birth and growth of meaningful dialogue. Hopefully that was not your intention and I doubt it was. I know very well what you meant. I believe you were attempting to get the point across that the material was of very low quality. But you could have simply said that it appeared to be of low quality. Implying a bookstore's worth of literature is beneath the capabilities of a seven year old is untactful and derogatory. Not to mention the fact that you couldn't have possibly read but a very small percentage of the relevant material unless the place is a hole in the wall.

Polkinghorne has at least one other book that I know of. I will probably read that soon. I should probably read the Barker book as well but I fear it will mainly be about fundamentalism? Am I correct in that assumption?

Joe Nobody

FredJ_UK

Gosh, I certainly didn't mean to do that. But I still do wonder if you're over-touchy about this. Perhaps it's a cultural difference that I'll need to come to terms with - I don't know anyone back here in the UK that would take offence at what I said. (As you post from "nowhere" I can't take the geographic analysis much further.)

Yep, 'fraid so. But don't let that put you off. I think it's well worth a read; the fact that Barker broke out of being a devout fundamentalist minister to atheism, and faced up to the reactions of his colleagues and family, makes it compulsive reading. I should also say, however, that the book does also contain big chunks of "standard" stuff like the lists of bible contradictions and the apologies for them; I suspect you'll be familiar with all that stuff.

FredJ_UK

I guess I'm sorry again - I just noticed your mention of Waterbury, CT earlier in the thread!

Joe Nobody

I could be.

If its a cultural difference I need to come to terms with it as well

Ii have heard that we are touchy over here in America compared to some other places. The land of the politically correct?

I would imagine a devout fundamentalist preacher deconverting (or converting as it may be called) to atheism ccoul cause some Jerry Springer type family complications. Did Barker go straight from a fundamentalist to an atheist or did he go through one of these :

Fundamentalist ---> Evangelical ---> Liberal ---> Atheist

Yeah, I am definately familiar with that stuff. Part of his book is available online here at II I think. I've read the Easter Challenge. I have to admit I wasn't very impressed. I think it presented a strong arguement against fundamentalist views but I don't think that chapter hit evangelicals or liberal Christians very hard--if at all. I think he should have critiqued specific harmonization attempts if he wished to do more than critique fundamentalist views. But I'm not sure his purpose was to argue against liberal or evangelical Christianity.

Joe Nobody

Vorkosigan

Polkinghorne is reviewed by Victor Stenger in the Infidels Library, Joe.

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/vic_stenger/polkrev.html" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/vic_stenger/polkrev.html</a>

It's a good review, and charitable to what is apparently a rather weak work.

Essentially, the low quality of apologetic writing reflects the weaknesses of the topic. A writer, however brilliant, is only as good as her material.

Vorkosigan

FredJ_UK

Some years ago in Ottawa I visited a friend of mine (also British) who had emigrated to Canada. He was keen that I joined him and offered me a job in his IT company. Although he could have just gone ahead with the hire, he said he should do the courteous thing and ask his business partner to interview me. I was all set up for this when I heard that this interview was deemed unnecessary - the partner had apparently said "no, I don't need to interview - he'll just be another rude Brit - if you say he can do the job, that's OK". So I guess our fame travels before us.

It isn't completely clear how his beliefs progressed "internally", but publically he just, from being a trusted and respected minister, "came out" overnight as atheist, drafting a standard conversion letter and seding it to everyone he knew, family as well.
He may be moving on to that later, but I think he felt that starting with Fundamentalism was enough. He feels strongly that fundamentalism is a bad influence rather than just a neutral one as far as impact on society, effect on children and their schooling etc, are concerned. This is one of the things that was most significant for me - I started to realise the impact that fundamentalism has in the US in the wider avenues of life, and perhaps there are good political, rather than just academic, reasons for opposing it. Here in the UK the position is very different, with fundamentalism (at least the Christian variety) having little impact now. Although recently there's been a big news item about a privately run college in the UK where, because of the beliefs of the financial sponsor, there is pressure to promote Creationism on an equal footing with Darwinism and big bang science in science teaching.