Jonesy

Hi,

it seems to me that, looking at the debate over the last couple of years, there are some possibilities as to how the universe with everything in it came to be:

1. It was not created by any 'intelligent' being and evolved by itself over billions of years

2. It was created by an 'intelligent' being (can call him 'God' or whatever for the purpose of this discussion) and evolved due to the design of this 'god' over 6 days.

3. It was created by an 'intelligent' being (can call him 'God' or whatever for the purpose of this discussion) and evolved due to the design of this 'god' over billions of years days.


Now, my logic tells me, given scientific progress of today, that out of the above, Possibility 2 must be wrong due to the physical impossibility of everything coming together over '6 days' - many processes have been demonstrated by science to clearly take longer than that.

That leaves the two other possibilities. Now, it clearly looks like the only difference between them is the idea of the 'god' or 'intelligent being'. I think we could all accept the 'billions of years' part - then, the only unresolved question for the entire humanity remains whether this 'development of the Universe over billions of years' has occurred entirely by itself OR whether it is a conscious project of intelligence on a level that we yet cannot understand.

I'd like some comments on the above and also on what is more probable: that many rules have established themselves over time OR that someone designed these rules to establish themselves over time (eg. the time it takes for the moon to go around the earth).

I cannot get over the fact that in todays world, everything humans design is less advanced than some natural processes which have existed for millions of years, such as gravity. Why don't we fully understand these processes? Is it because we are NOT YET intelligent enough to understand these processes? But, if someday we reach a stage at which we can do anything in the universe, then this means that we would have reached some level of intelligence which we initially, back in the 21st century, thought that 'established itself'. But isn't strange that to GET to that future level of knowledge, we cannot actually WAIT OURSELVES for this intelligence to establish itself in our minds - we actually have to GET SMARTER OURSELVES with intelligent conscious effort?

The above argument is my best current understanding of the issue of whether the universe was designed and put into being consciously or wheather it 'happened by itself'.

I'd like some discussion on the above argument.

Mageth

You left off at least one possible explanation:

4) It has always existed.

Oolon Colluphid

As Writer @ Large wrote back in August:

Oolon

[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: Oolon Colluphid ]</p>

Jonesy

Ummmm, I don't remember promoting any cults and have no idea (unless you are willing to enlighten me) as to what your post-reply has to do with my started topic. I'm yet to hear any constructive comments ON THE TOPIC from you.

Mageth

...that many rules have established themselves over time...

I don't agree with this wording. The "rules" of the universe did not "establish themselves." You cannot separate the "rules" from the "substance" - together they define, or "are," the universe.

But isn't strange that to GET to that future level of knowledge, we cannot actually WAIT OURSELVES for this intelligence to establish itself in our minds - we actually have to GET SMARTER OURSELVES with intelligent conscious effort?

Well, to reach our current level of intelligence capacity, we didn't have to "get smarter ourselves" - the "rules" took care of that for us, you might say.

And since we are part of the universe, and acting under its "rules," any advance in knowledge on our part is merely a continuation (you might say an emergent phenomenon) of the universe and its "rules."

We are not separate from the universe - anything we can and will do is an emergent phenomenon of the natural universe.

Kosh

Yes, and I suggest we all do so by refusing
to buy your ugly t-shirts.

Jonesy

low level comment from a low level mind...

Jonesy

So, what you are saying is that the rules were ALWAYS there? Don't you think that there HAD TO be a starting point for these rules?

In our world today, there is NOT ONE RULE that has no starting point. Rules are created everywhere you look in the modern society. What your argument is saying is that, even though the primitive rules of the modern world are always created by us humans, the 'more intelligent' rules that govern the universe 'were always there' (?) The above logic suggests that rules that are obviously too complex for us to yet understand need a starting point.

Kosh

Maybe, maybe not. But your shirts are still
ugly, and your UFO cult is still moronic.

Jonesy

First of all it's not a cult and what you are referring to as a 'cult' is not even mine, as you seem to suggest