Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ryanfire · 07-17-2002, 11:06 AM

Since we're on the topic of atheism and theism.

Atheism being the default position when born, but theism has the chance to take over. Nobody has a definative answer. Theists place god in places that others cannot get to. Atheism can't prove god doesn't exist with science as of yet.

I myself do not have the true answers as an agnostic. I can only listen and talk about my beliefs in order to find what is the most logical belief. I guess I ask more questions then I do give answers.

I tend to be more on the atheists side for their logic and reason which leads to better understanding. Theism isn't winning me over anytime soon. Hundreds of religions not knowing the true answer and relying on faith to justify it.

Should one pick a side, or is agnosticism the best choice?

Tom Sawyer · 07-17-2002, 12:03 PM

Rely on your own instinct.

If you have faith that God exists, no amount of logical reasoning is going to convince you otherwise.

If it's your logical conclusion is that God doesn't exist, no amount of appeals that you should have faith are going to sway you.

None of us operates in a intellectual vaccuum and any answers that you choose to accept are based on your worldview. Read the arguments people make in these forums and you'll see what I mean.

The fact that you have more questions than answers is a good thing. Once you start having answers on a subject means you've stopped thinking about that subject.

Don't pick a side for the sake of picking a side. Until one camp or the other can sway you with it's reasoning, stay an agnostic and keep asking questions.

[ July 17, 2002: Message edited by: peteyh ]</p>

Jayhawker Soule · 07-17-2002, 12:36 PM

In my opinion, nothing.

Walter_Mitty · 07-17-2002, 01:11 PM

Why not both?

Try looking at propositions in degrees of probability:

E.g., after examining the evidence for "Earth Gods", I have concluded that their existence is highly improbable--hence a near atheistic position.

As for an unknown entity that "might" be a God or Gods "somewhere" in the Universe, well, since there is currently no good way to test this proposition, I would have to suspend my judgment--hence agnostic.

Less filling, tastes great!

DarkBronzePlant · 07-17-2002, 01:39 PM

You shouldn't tell yourself that you need to decide one way or the other if you don't feel that you have enough information to do so. It's okay to say "I don't know."

Jayhawker Soule · 07-17-2002, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DarkBronzePlant:
<strong>You shouldn't tell yourself that you need to decide one way or the other if you don't feel that you have enough information to do so. It's okay to say "I don't know."</strong>

Just curious: what is the rationale for selective agnosticism? Is "I don't know" somehow

very reasonable with respect to Deism,
somewhat reasonable with respect to God,
not very reasonable with respect to YHWH,
barely reasonable with respect to Vishnu, and
in no way reasonable with respect to the Faerie Kingdom?

What does it mean to suggest that one is somehow more or less supernatural the the other? It seems to me that once you let the Genie out of the bottle, it's mere pretense to assert how it can and cannot manifest itself.

[ July 17, 2002: Message edited by: ReasonableDoubt ]</p>

Ryanfire · 07-17-2002, 03:15 PM

agnostic:

One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

I would replace the word "God" with "a Creator". And that pretty much sums up my views as an agnostic.

I mean the deities made by humanity do not make any sense. If a deity is incomprehensible, there is no damn way any of us will know the attributes that make up this deity.

The bible is just contradiction after contradiction and even with faith I could not believe in it.

Now on the other hand.. the universes creation is an unknown. Perhaps it wasn't created, but just exists. As an agnostic I will keep my mind open to any possibility. I view the information presented from both sides and disect it, and mold it into my own theories.

I don't believe in religion, but there could be a creator. Armed with science, logic, reason, and intuition I hope to find answers.

I do not look for pride, or wish to join a side.

I just want the truth.

Jobar · 07-17-2002, 04:42 PM

Although this is an interesting topic, I don't think it is an EoG topic. MRD.

WJ · 07-18-2002, 04:25 AM

I am glad you posed the question because there are many wannabe agnostics out there. In a strictly philosophical context, I agree with dark bronze that it is ok to approach debate and discussion from a nutural position. Otherwise, the dynamics of the mind sort of senses or reacts in a mode of shut-down, if you know what I mean here. The short answer IMO is that the agnostic 'approach' works better in feeding philosphical fodder.

Walrus

Ryanfire · 07-18-2002, 06:20 AM

At least as an agnostic, I can concede the fact that if there is a god, we probably won't find it.
All we could possibly find is gods work.

But from that theism has molded this into their own interpretation of existence and the purpose for all, abusing this unknown for power over the people. So many religions exist as to maintain this power.

I cannot become an atheist or theist in the sense I'm not perfect, and do not know why or how anything exists.

WJ:
I guess you could say as an agnostic, I can approach philosophy with a clear mind, open to all.

07-17-2002, 11:06 AM	#1
Ryanfire Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 301	What does agnosticism offer? Since we're on the topic of atheism and theism. Atheism being the default position when born, but theism has the chance to take over. Nobody has a definative answer. Theists place god in places that others cannot get to. Atheism can't prove god doesn't exist with science as of yet. I myself do not have the true answers as an agnostic. I can only listen and talk about my beliefs in order to find what is the most logical belief. I guess I ask more questions then I do give answers. I tend to be more on the atheists side for their logic and reason which leads to better understanding. Theism isn't winning me over anytime soon. Hundreds of religions not knowing the true answer and relying on faith to justify it. Should one pick a side, or is agnosticism the best choice?

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07-17-2002, 12:03 PM	#2
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	Rely on your own instinct. If you have faith that God exists, no amount of logical reasoning is going to convince you otherwise. If it's your logical conclusion is that God doesn't exist, no amount of appeals that you should have faith are going to sway you. None of us operates in a intellectual vaccuum and any answers that you choose to accept are based on your worldview. Read the arguments people make in these forums and you'll see what I mean. The fact that you have more questions than answers is a good thing. Once you start having answers on a subject means you've stopped thinking about that subject. Don't pick a side for the sake of picking a side. Until one camp or the other can sway you with it's reasoning, stay an agnostic and keep asking questions. [ July 17, 2002: Message edited by: peteyh ]</p>

07-17-2002, 12:36 PM	#3
Jayhawker Soule Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,777	In my opinion, nothing.

07-17-2002, 01:11 PM	#4
Walter_Mitty Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: . Posts: 467	Why not both? Try looking at propositions in degrees of probability: E.g., after examining the evidence for "Earth Gods", I have concluded that their existence is highly improbable--hence a near atheistic position. As for an unknown entity that "might" be a God or Gods "somewhere" in the Universe, well, since there is currently no good way to test this proposition, I would have to suspend my judgment--hence agnostic. Less filling, tastes great!

07-17-2002, 01:39 PM	#5
DarkBronzePlant Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: San Francisco, CA USA Posts: 3,568	You shouldn't tell yourself that you need to decide one way or the other if you don't feel that you have enough information to do so. It's okay to say "I don't know."

07-17-2002, 03:15 PM	#7
Ryanfire Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 301	agnostic: One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism. I would replace the word "God" with "a Creator". And that pretty much sums up my views as an agnostic. I mean the deities made by humanity do not make any sense. If a deity is incomprehensible, there is no damn way any of us will know the attributes that make up this deity. The bible is just contradiction after contradiction and even with faith I could not believe in it. Now on the other hand.. the universes creation is an unknown. Perhaps it wasn't created, but just exists. As an agnostic I will keep my mind open to any possibility. I view the information presented from both sides and disect it, and mold it into my own theories. I don't believe in religion, but there could be a creator. Armed with science, logic, reason, and intuition I hope to find answers. I do not look for pride, or wish to join a side. I just want the truth.

07-17-2002, 04:42 PM	#8
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Although this is an interesting topic, I don't think it is an EoG topic. MRD.

07-18-2002, 04:25 AM	#9
WJ Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 812	I am glad you posed the question because there are many wannabe agnostics out there. In a strictly philosophical context, I agree with dark bronze that it is ok to approach debate and discussion from a nutural position. Otherwise, the dynamics of the mind sort of senses or reacts in a mode of shut-down, if you know what I mean here. The short answer IMO is that the agnostic 'approach' works better in feeding philosphical fodder. Walrus

07-18-2002, 06:20 AM	#10
Ryanfire Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 301	At least as an agnostic, I can concede the fact that if there is a god, we probably won't find it. All we could possibly find is gods work. But from that theism has molded this into their own interpretation of existence and the purpose for all, abusing this unknown for power over the people. So many religions exist as to maintain this power. I cannot become an atheist or theist in the sense I'm not perfect, and do not know why or how anything exists. WJ: I guess you could say as an agnostic, I can approach philosophy with a clear mind, open to all.

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