Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vorkosigan · 11-22-2002, 12:41 AM

<a href="http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.12/prayer.html" target="_blank">Wired article appearing to completely buy into Targ's work</a> featured in the Newswire.

<a href="http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-03/fringe-watcher.html" target="_blank">CSICOP article on the realities of Targ's objectivity....</a>

"Elisabeth first participated in psi experiments when she was a teenager. On page ninety-six of The Mind Race (1984), a book by Russell Targ and his former psychic friend Keith Harary, Elisabeth is identified as a medical student at Stanford, and an "experienced psi-experimenter and remote viewer." In 1970 she took part in a series of what the authors call successful experiments with a psi-teaching machine. She is said to have recently obtained degrees in biology and Russian."

I hope some of you who subscribe to Wired write in about this...
Vorkosigan

Happy Wonderer · 11-22-2002, 01:10 PM

Quote:

In 1998 Ms. Targ received $15,000 from the Templeton Foundation, an organization established by billionaire John Templeton, an evangelical Presbyterian who showers cash on persons and organizations he thinks are promoting religion. His interest in Ms. Targ's institute springs from her research supporting the healing power of prayer.

Somewhat off-topic, but hmm. Gotta tell my Dad's old colleagues about how to fund those research projects. Let's see if we can come up with titles:

The effect of prayer upon smoking rates among junior-high school students (Oh wait, I think that has been done already.)
Prayer, family size, income, and SAT performance.
Faith and direct instruction: a comparative study.
Prayer and aggression among immature rats in a high-stimulus environment.
Lactose intolerance among Asian adults: proof of God's grand design

HW

HW

Happy Wonderer · 11-22-2002, 01:23 PM

Actually further into the article it seems to be pretty skeptical:

Quote:

This isn't what science means by double-blind. The data may all be legitimate, but it's not good form. Statisticians call this the sharpshooter's fallacy - spraying bullets randomly, then drawing a target circle around a cluster. When Targ and Sicher wrote the paper that made her famous, they let the reader assume that all along their study had been designed to measure the 23 AIDS-related illnesses - even though they're careful never to say so. They never mentioned that this was the last in a long list of endpoints they looked at, or that it was data collected after an unblinding.
...
With this information, I reread the paper with an awe for how carefully they chose their words. Only with the benefit of this hindsight do holes emerge, ones that had been clouded by the scientific language and statistical commentary.

And just when I was getting ready to go on the attack

HW

[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: Happy Wonderer ]

crocodile deathroll · 11-22-2002, 01:57 PM

Here is a recent link I found on a scientifically controlled experiment for <a href="http://exn.ca/Stories/2001/11/20/52.asp" target="_blank"> remote healing. </a>

Ab_Normal · 11-22-2002, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Happy Wonderer:
And just when I was getting ready to go on the attack

That was precisely my response.

Off-topic - I was more peeved by the picture they claimed to be of the LIGO experiment at the Hanford site. There aren't that many trees in Eastern Washington; it must be a picture of the Louisiana LIGO site. Oy.

Mad Kally · 11-22-2002, 02:29 PM

<a href="http://members.aol.com/garypos/prayer.html" target="_blank"> The power of prayer? </a>

Vorkosigan · 11-22-2002, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Happy Wonderer:
Actually further into the article it seems to be pretty skeptical:

And just when I was getting ready to go on the attack

HW[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: Happy Wonderer ]

Yes, I should have read the whole thing. The beginning was so laudatory, though...

crocodile deathroll · 11-23-2002, 01:05 AM

This is about the best link I can find on the subject <a href="http://www.csicop.org/articles/20010810-prayer/" target="_blank"> intercessory prayer </a>

It is interesting to note that <a href="http://www.skepticfiles.org/skeptic/basjul89.htm" target="_blank">Dr. Randolph Byrd, MD </a> is a fundementalist Christian If you really want a serious double blind test then start with premature babies. At it would be garanteed to be "blind" on one side at least.

11-22-2002, 12:41 AM	#1
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	WIRED and Prayer and healing <a href="http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.12/prayer.html" target="_blank">Wired article appearing to completely buy into Targ's work</a> featured in the Newswire. <a href="http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-03/fringe-watcher.html" target="_blank">CSICOP article on the realities of Targ's objectivity....</a> "Elisabeth first participated in psi experiments when she was a teenager. On page ninety-six of The Mind Race (1984), a book by Russell Targ and his former psychic friend Keith Harary, Elisabeth is identified as a medical student at Stanford, and an "experienced psi-experimenter and remote viewer." In 1970 she took part in a series of what the authors call successful experiments with a psi-teaching machine. She is said to have recently obtained degrees in biology and Russian." I hope some of you who subscribe to Wired write in about this... Vorkosigan

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11-22-2002, 01:57 PM	#4
crocodile deathroll Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Darwin Posts: 1,466	Here is a recent link I found on a scientifically controlled experiment for <a href="http://exn.ca/Stories/2001/11/20/52.asp" target="_blank"> remote healing. </a>

11-22-2002, 02:29 PM	#6
Mad Kally Banned Join Date: May 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 3,764	<a href="http://members.aol.com/garypos/prayer.html" target="_blank"> The power of prayer? </a>

11-23-2002, 01:05 AM	#8
crocodile deathroll Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Darwin Posts: 1,466	This is about the best link I can find on the subject <a href="http://www.csicop.org/articles/20010810-prayer/" target="_blank"> intercessory prayer </a> It is interesting to note that <a href="http://www.skepticfiles.org/skeptic/basjul89.htm" target="_blank">Dr. Randolph Byrd, MD </a> is a fundementalist Christian If you really want a serious double blind test then start with premature babies. At it would be garanteed to be "blind" on one side at least.

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