Dark Jedi

A discussion elsewhere has brough up an interesting topic:

The inclusion of camels as beasts of burden in the NT shows a likely date of between 700 and 1000ad. Camels were not domesticated, according to archaeological evidence, until approximately that time period.


Any experts, or at least knowledgeable, on the subject care to comment?

Peter Kirby

Ridiculous. The person who passed this on has gotten confused, as the normal criticism is that Abraham couldn't have had a camel because they weren't domesticated (allegedly) until the first millennium BCE.[1] I am no archaeology expert, but plenty of literary evidence (such as the Old Testament itself) shows that camels were domesticated before the common era. Here are some other references from Perseus:

1 from Aeschylus, Suppliant Maidens
Aeschylus, Suppliant Women (ed. Herbert Weir Smyth, Ph. D.) line 280
King And of such aspect, I have heard, are nomad women, whoride on camels for steeds, having padded saddles, and dwell in a land neighboring the Aethiopians. (3.64)

1 from Demosthenes, On the Navy
Demosthenes, Speeches 11-20 speech 14, section 27
And what is that to the twelve hundred camels laden, as our friends here tell us, with the King's treasure? (4.36)

3 from Diodorus, Historical Library
Diodorus Siculus, Library book 17, chapter 71, section 2
Accordingly he sent for a vast number of mules from Babylon and Mesopotamia, as well as from Susa itself, both pack and harness animals as well as three thousand pack camels. (5.48)

Diodorus Siculus, Library book 17, chapter 80, section 3
Alexander dispatched riders on racing camels, who travelled faster than the report of Philotas's punishment and murdered his father Parmenion. (3.46)

Diodorus Siculus, Library book 17, chapter 105, section 7
He determined, therefore, to send out swift messengers into Parthyaea and Drangine and Areia and the other areas bordering on the desert, ordering these to bring quickly to the gates of Carmania racing camels and other animals trained to carry burdens, loading them with food and other necessities. (3.74)

15 from Herodotus, Histories
Herodotus, The Histories (ed. A. D. Godley) book 1, chapter 80, section 2
Assembling all the camels that followed his army bearing food and baggage, he took off their burdens and mounted men upon them equipped like cavalrymen; having equipped them, he ordered them to advance before his army against Croesus' cavalry; he directed the infantry to follow the camels, and placed all his cavalry behind the infantry. (6.16)

Herodotus, The Histories (ed. A. D. Godley) book 1, chapter 80, section 4
The reason for his posting the camels to face the cavalry was this: horses fear camels and can endure neither the sight nor the smell of them; this then was the intention of his maneuver, that Croesus' cavalry, on which the Lydian relied to distinguish himself, might be of no use. (7.36)

Herodotus, The Histories (ed. A. D. Godley) book 1, chapter 80, section 5
So when battle was joined, as soon as the horses smelled and saw the camels they turned to flight, and all Croesus' hope was lost. (3.74)

2 from Pausanias, Description of Greece
Pausanias, Description of Greece book 6, chapter 5, section 4
The mountainous part of Thrace, on this side the river Nestus, which runs through the land of Abdera, breeds among other wild beasts lions, which once attacked the army of Xerxes, and mauled the camels carrying his supplies. (2.97)

Pausanias, Description of Greece book 9, chapter 21, section 2
I saw also Indian camels with the color of leopards. (3.83)

1 from Strabo, Geography
Strabo, Geography book 11, chapter 5, section 8
Now Abeacus, king of the Siraces, sent forth twenty thousand horsemen at the time when Pharnaces held the Bosporus; and Spadines, king of the Aorsi, two hundred thousand; but the upper Aorsi sent a still larger number, for they held dominion over more land, and, one may almost say, ruled over most of the Caspian coast; and consequently they could import on camels the Indian and Babylonian merchandise, receiving it in their turn from the Armenians and the Medes, and also, owing to their wealth, could wear golden ornaments. (2.55)

1 from Tacitus, Annales
Tacitus, The Annals book 15, chapter 12
Beside the other usual accompaniments of war, his army was followed by a great number of camels laden with corn, to keep off famine as well as the enemy. (2.75)

best,
Peter Kirby

[1] Here is an apologist's response to that claim.

David Bowden

I can't claim to be terrifically knowledgeable on camel usage in antiquity, but a year ago I read The Bible Unearthed and I seem to recall current camel-domestication dating contradicting passages from the OT, not the NT. If, in the paragraph above, we replace NT with OT, and 700-1000AD with 700-1000BC, then it would basically line up with what I remember from that book, which claims that Abraham's date (centuries pre-1000BCE) and camel domestication (sometime around 1000BCE) don't jive. But this is from memory only; I don't have a copy of the book or I'd cite the relevant passage.

Also, I could add one more Herodotus camel reference to Peter Kirby's fine list - book seven of the Histories mentions the lion attack in Greece on Xerxes' camels that Pausanias records; this event would be dated several hundred years BCE. This event sticks out in my mind because Herodotus says that lions were extremely rare to the west of the Hellespont.

-David

Celsus

Hi Dark Jedi

Genesis 37:25 describes the use of camels in trade routes, during the time of the patriarchs (if historical sometime around 2000-1800BCE). Caravans were not domesticated (as beasts of burden) until well after 1000BCE, and were not used in trade until the 8th to 7th century BCE, according to The Bible Unearthed as David points out.

Joel

Amergin

Finkelstein and Silberman confidently asserted: We now know through archaeological research that camels were not domesticated as beasts of burden earlier than the late second millennium and were not widely used in that capacity in the ancient Near East until well after 1000 BCE (2001, p. 37, emp. added).

Several pieces of evidence do exist (and have existed for some time) that prove camels were domesticated during (and even before) the time of Abraham (roughly 2,000 B.C.). In an article that appeared in the Journal of Near Eastern Studies a half-century ago, professor Joseph Free listed several instances of Egyptian archaeological finds supporting the domestication of camels [NOTE: The dates given for the Egyptian dynasties are from Clayton, 2001, pp.14-68]. The earliest evidence comes from a pottery camel’s head and a terra cotta tablet with men riding on and leading camels. According to Free, these are both from predynastic Egypt (1944, pp. 189-190), which according to Clayton is roughly before 3150 B.C. Free also listed three clay camel heads and a limestone vessel in the form of camel lying down—all dated at the First Dynasty of Egypt (3050-2890 B.C.). He then mentioned several models of camels from the Fourth Dynasty (2613-2498 B.C.), and a petroglyph depicting a camel and a man dated at the Sixth Dynasty (2345-2184 B.C.). Such evidence has led one respected Egyptologist to conclude that “the extant evidence clearly indicates that the domestic camel was known [in Egypt—ZS/EL] by 3,000 B.C.”—long before Abraham’s time (Kitchen, 1980, 1:228).

While prolific in Egypt, finds relating to the domestication of camels are not isolated to the African continent. In his book, Ancient Orient and the Old Testament, professor Kenneth Kitchen (retired) of the University of Liverpool reported several discoveries made outside of Egypt proving ancient camel domestication around 2,000 B.C. Lexical lists from Mesopotamia have been uncovered that show a knowledge of domesticated camels as far back as this time. Camel bones have been found in household ruins at Mari in present-day Syria that fossilologists believe are also at least 4,000 years old. Furthermore, a Sumerian text from the time of Abraham has been discovered in the ancient city of Nippur (located in what is now southeastern Iraq) that clearly implies the domestication of camels by its allusions to camels’ milk (Kitchen, 1966, p. 79).

Posted by Amergin

Celsus

Hi Amergin,

Could you give the full list of authors, titles and publishers? That post of author (year) references doesn't help us inquisitive minds you know. And are you certain you didn't just copy this out of a book? I only say this, because you didn't add any emphasis where you claim there is emphasis added.

Joel

Peter Kirby

This is the source:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/bibb...2/bb-02-42.htm

Please mention your sources, folks, and give credit where credit is due.

best,
Peter Kirby

Broozr

Finkelstein and Silberman in The Bible Unearthed do in fact look for a later date of the OLD TESTAMENT composition (ca. 7th cent. B.C.). Camels are mentioned in Genesis 37,25 and the authors state that "We know through archaeological research that camels were not domesticated ... until well after 1000 B.C." (Page 37)

The references to camels in the NEW TESTAMENT should not be used as evidence to discount a 1st cent. A.D. date for the writing of the NT books. I don't think any evidence should. :-)

Butters

O.K. Here's my problem. I know almost nothing about archaeology. Finkelstein and Silberman claim that camels were not domesticated ... until well after 1000 B.C. The apologitics site claims they were domesticated much earlier. I could never learn enough to examine and interpret all the evidence on my own. Is there a final authority on the subject? One major society? Could this question be answered so soundly that anyone that wanted to be taken seriously would not be able to deny it?

NOGO

Off hand I would put more faith in what Finkelstein and Silberman wrote than information coming from a fundamentalist site.

But I would also verify this information. Fundamentalists are known to quote and reference falsehoods.