moon

Since I am a long-time atheist, many are surprised to find that I am a supporter of moderate churches in the U.S. I know a lot of people here get a sort of perverse pleasure out of bashing religion and the follies of the religious. Usually this bashing is directed at the fundies, and in this I gladly join in, because they rightly deserve our scorn.

However, often we miss out on a lot of good roles churches play in the U.S., and how much worse off we would be if they were to vanish.

For one thing, churches in the U.S. are virtually the only "intermediate organisations" in our society. By intermediate organisation, I mean organisations between the individual and the government. Such intermediate organisations are abolutely essential to a healthy democracy, as they are the only real way that people can organize and have real political power.

In most countries unions are the major intermediate organisations. Indeed, if you look at where the major popular movements get their strength, you will see that churches play the role in the U.S. that unions play in other countries. The reason for this is that the churches exist! That is, they are places where people can organize, socialize, and give mutual support and aid.

I would like to see unions gain back some of the power that has been stripped from them over the last 80 years by a relentless class war waged by business elites. But, until that happens, churches are really the only places where people get together for mutual aid and support.

Vorkosigan

"virtually the only intermediate organizations"

You're joking, right? America abounds with NGOs of every description. For any particular issue, there are thousands of local, regional, state, and national organizations, as well as umbrella organizations that link them together, government-owned non-profits, think tanks.....

Michael

moon

Yes, of course, these organizations exist. But, they don't have any real power. Think tanks? These exist mostly to push agendas, they are not mutual aid and support organizations.

In the U.S. the only groups that organize on a scale that can offer the kind of political organization that can make for real power is churches. Unions are pathetically weak here, and there really just aren't any other comparable groups.

Bree

Can you give a few examples of how we as a society would be "worse off" if churches were to vanish? I myself can't think of any.

If intermediate organisations (like churches) are the only "real way" that people can organise and have "real" political power, what do we atheists have on our side? Obviously not organisation or "real" political power.

I think that the SecWeb helps people get together for mutual aid and support, don't you? And how many churches really are only about mutual aid and support? I haven't found one that doesn't mix in propaganda and hatred for at least one group of humanity somewhere among that "love your neighbor" crap.

In my opinion, it is the "moderate churches" that do the most damage to society. We hear so much about the really-left and really-right religious groups - they get the most press - but it is the fence-sitters that harm us the most. They think that they are exempt from having strong opinions about one thing or another simply because they go to church every Sunday, take communion, and read a little bit of their Bible every now and then. They feel that they are "set for heaven" by simply following a pre-determined path, and that they don't have to think, feel, or be affected by anything else in life.

I have always believed that fence-sitters are pacifists that hide behind the "I'm sitting back and being objective" line.

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Bree ]</p>

DMB

Makes you wonder how those of us in countries without powerful churches get by.

pug846

This topic would be better suited for Misc. Discussions. Morality isn't being discussed here.

Koyaanisqatsi

This is a lot like saying, "What's wrong with the KKK? It's an organization where people can go to get mutual aid and support."

No wonder all those people at Jonestown were lying down peacefully arm-in-arm. They were getting all that mutual aid and support.

Or was that just Kool aid and support?

moon

It's funny how often the very behavior that atheists criticize in theists is typified so often here on the SecWeb. So often people post responses without really even thinking about them, and simply reacting in a knee-jerk way.

Perhaps we should step back a moment and reflect on the good things religion does in our society. For many people, church offers an opportunity to go and be with their neighbors in a good-hearted atmosphere, and to try to pick up some good moral lessons. Most christians don't believe all of that nasty stuff in the bible anyway, and criticizing religion because of that really misses the point.

Koyaanisqatsi

If you mean by this that salient points go unaddressed, I agree.

If you're refering to me, I did not simply react in a "knee-jerk" way. What you posted is indeed like saying, ""What's wrong with the KKK? It's an organization where people can go to get mutual aid and support."

Why not demonstrate your piousness by addressing the argument and offering counter-refutation?

Such as?

And this is different from my KKK analogy how?

I see, so the fact that they're even more delusional than first suspected is beneficial to society how? Their ability to selectively ignore the "nasty stuff" that is nonetheless the basis for their beliefs and is just as fervently indoctrinated helps society in what way?

Now who is simply reacting in a knee-jerk way? You're the one who posted this tripe. I assume you are capable of addressing arguments against it as well?

Sakpo

If Americans became less religious I'm fairly certain they would still form other, secular, institutions to replace the majority of the functions performed currently by churches.

Koy, I don't think comparing moderate churches to the KKK is at all fair. It either unfairly demonizes churches(including black ones) that have often been the rallying points against the KKK or it trivializes the KKK.

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Sakpo ]</p>