Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Shinobi · 04-21-2003, 12:23 AM

Iv'e heard it mentioned by some christians that Jews killed Jesus. This has been the basis for much anti-semitism in history. I would like to know what is the basis for this is? I thought it was the romans who killed Jesus. (well, in the story at least. I'm a Jesus Myther.)

lpetrich · 04-21-2003, 01:13 AM

Matthew 27:25 -- an anti-Jesus lynch mob said "May his blood be on us and on our children."

Which is like saying that they accepted a black mark on their record.

When a real lynch mob would unrepentantly say "Death to Jesus!"

Tristan Scott · 04-21-2003, 06:43 AM

Yes Ipetrich, but it was also Matthew that had Jesus explain that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then it was the Jews who rejected Jesus and it was the Jews who rejected all the susequent claims made by the Early Church. The fourth Gospel, probably written some 70 years after Jesus' death, is IMO the Early Church's strongest response to the Jewish challenge to Jesus' legitimacy. John has Jesus himself referring to the Jews as incarnations of Satan. It was this Gospel followed by later writings and oratory by early Church leaders such as Ambrose and John Chrysostom that formed the basis for all the idea of the Jews as "Christ-killers".

Vinnie · 04-21-2003, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shinobi
Iv'e heard it mentioned by some christians that Jews killed Jesus. This has been the basis for much anti-semitism in history. I would like to know what is the basis for this is? I thought it was the romans who killed Jesus. (well, in the story at least. I'm a Jesus Myther.)

Jesus was crucified by Romans.

Vinnie

Shinobi · 04-21-2003, 07:52 AM

But how did the jews supposedly kill him? If it was romans that orderd his death and put him upon a cross it look as though romans killed him. Was he betrayed by jews or something? (did they dob him in?)

Tristan Scott · 04-21-2003, 09:28 AM

If you are really interested in this subject I would suggest that you read What Crucified Jesus by ellis Rivkin. He shows how Jesus was seen by the Romans as a threat so they killed him.

To claim that The Jews killed him is silly. Not that they wouldn't kill one of their own, it's just that Jesus was a Jew. He was born a Jew and died a Jew. He had know idea what a Christian was.

Toto · 04-21-2003, 11:16 AM

Quote:

ACTS 27 Having brought the apostles, they made them appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. 28 "We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name," he said. "Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man's blood."

29 Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men! 30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead--whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree.

"You" refers to the Sanhedrin, the governing body of Judaism.

[Apologists have to work hard to explain this. The words for "tree" and "cross" are similar - a cross is a pole, which is a piece of a dead tree - but the Sanhedrin would not have executed someone by hanging him from a tree (or pole), although it might have stoned someone and hung his body on a tree. The whole section does not make a lot of sense, but might indicate an early pre-Gospel tradition that the Jews killed a heretic named Jesus or Jeschu: see the fascinating book by Mead on one of Peter's sites. The Gospel writers probably tried to make sense of this older tradition by having the Jews get the Romans to execute someone named Jesus.]

TiConTiki · 04-21-2003, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shinobi
But how did the jews supposedly kill him? If it was romans that orderd his death and put him upon a cross it look as though romans killed him. Was he betrayed by jews or something? (did they dob him in?)

Good questions. Although Jesus was actually killed by the Roman soldiers under the order of Pilate - it was at the insistance of the priestly class (Ogilarchy). These priests were the Sadducees and had a lot of control over Pilate - obviously as he admitted that Jesus had done no wrong and asked the people if they would like to see Jesus go free or Barrabas. They chose to free Barabas and kill Jesus.

Strange in a way - because the people he came to teach in the story were very Orthodox and would not believe him - compare that to the big mouth's of today who like to influence folks and again - they don't really follow Jesus teachings - which were slanted towards a more liberal viewpoint.

The anti-semitism that is in the NewTestament comes more from the words of Jesus to the Pharisees, in my opinion, than from the actual crucifixation itself. In one parable - Jesus askes for those who do not allow him to rule over them (Jews) to be brought in front of him and slain. That is one of the strongest passages - but there are many many more in the NT that promote anti-semitism.

Tristan Scott · 04-21-2003, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TiConTiki
Good questions. Although Jesus was actually killed by the Roman soldiers under the order of Pilate - it was at the insistance of the priestly class (Ogilarchy). These priests were the Sadducees and had a lot of control over Pilate - obviously as he admitted that Jesus had done no wrong and asked the people if they would like to see Jesus go free or Barrabas. They chose to free Barabas and kill Jesus.

I doubt that whole story is true. The Gospels (and Tacitus) were probably mistaken about Pilate being procurator of Judea. He was prefect from 26 to 36 according to the Caesarea Maritima inscription (discovered in 1961). As prefect he wouldn't have been interested at all with the religious disputes as he would have had he been the procurator. However as prefect he would have been concerned with threats to Roman rule. By proclaiming to be the King of the Jews, Jesus could have been seen as such a threat.

TiConTiki · 04-21-2003, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tristan Scott
I doubt that whole story is true. The Gospels (and Tacitus) were probably mistaken about Pilate being procurator of Judea. He was prefect from 26 to 36 according to the Caesarea Maritima inscription (discovered in 1961). As prefect he wouldn't have been interested at all with the religious disputes as he would have had he been the procurator. However as prefect he would have been concerned with threats to Roman rule. By proclaiming to be the King of the Jews, Jesus could have been seen as such a threat.

I dont' think that is necessarily true. Even today - the religious elders in a community are treated with kid gloves if it is felt they hold the key (and they usually do) to the common citizens obeying. Religion is a powerful and seductive thing. Pilate - if he was any kind of a diplomat - would likely make use of the folks who wielded the power over the majority in a religious sense.

Much of the Bible is likely not true IMHO - but for argument's sake - since it is believed inerrant by many - I thnk it behooves us to discuss the contents as they appear in the text.

04-21-2003, 12:23 AM	#1
Shinobi Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 357	Jews Killed Jesus? Iv'e heard it mentioned by some christians that Jews killed Jesus. This has been the basis for much anti-semitism in history. I would like to know what is the basis for this is? I thought it was the romans who killed Jesus. (well, in the story at least. I'm a Jesus Myther.)

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04-21-2003, 01:13 AM	#2
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Matthew 27:25 -- an anti-Jesus lynch mob said "May his blood be on us and on our children." Which is like saying that they accepted a black mark on their record. When a real lynch mob would unrepentantly say "Death to Jesus!"

04-21-2003, 06:43 AM	#3
Tristan Scott Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southwest USA Posts: 4,093	Yes Ipetrich, but it was also Matthew that had Jesus explain that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then it was the Jews who rejected Jesus and it was the Jews who rejected all the susequent claims made by the Early Church. The fourth Gospel, probably written some 70 years after Jesus' death, is IMO the Early Church's strongest response to the Jewish challenge to Jesus' legitimacy. John has Jesus himself referring to the Jews as incarnations of Satan. It was this Gospel followed by later writings and oratory by early Church leaders such as Ambrose and John Chrysostom that formed the basis for all the idea of the Jews as "Christ-killers".

04-21-2003, 07:52 AM	#5
Shinobi Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 357	But how did the jews supposedly kill him? If it was romans that orderd his death and put him upon a cross it look as though romans killed him. Was he betrayed by jews or something? (did they dob him in?)

04-21-2003, 09:28 AM	#6
Tristan Scott Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southwest USA Posts: 4,093	If you are really interested in this subject I would suggest that you read What Crucified Jesus by ellis Rivkin. He shows how Jesus was seen by the Romans as a threat so they killed him. To claim that The Jews killed him is silly. Not that they wouldn't kill one of their own, it's just that Jesus was a Jew. He was born a Jew and died a Jew. He had know idea what a Christian was.

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