Radorth

Actually I missed that part of your post. My apologies. But I think you are reading into the others based on the whole of their statements.

We don't find him going around explaining things to people, except that such and such was a warning to future generations. Why should he start doing things different just for you? "Well if I'm going to obey, I need explanations for everything no matter how many booming voices I hear." Even you are saying that now I think.

What if he tells you what he told Job, which is basically "I don't have to explain a damn thing to anybody."

I'm saying I have absolutely no evidence most skeptics wouldn't whine and moan if God's rules and nature are approximately what I say it is. AIF says he doesn't care how many boomog voices he hears- God has to give him the right answers or he won't change. Right?

So no, I think rebellion, not faith is the problem. And I think God knows that by now.

Rad

Jayjay

Booming voice is just a booming voice, it doesn't justify morality. If I heard "Abortion is Murder!" from the sky (and had good reason to believe that it's of supernatural origina and not just another pro-life publicity stunt), I cannot draw a conclusion that abortion really is a murder and wrong, only that there is a big godly figure who says so. Now, on the other hand, if the booming voice said something like "Hello, I am God and I plant these little souls in people who don't appreciate themselves being aborted, so cut it out", that would be more reason to take the pro-life stance. But even then, the question "okay, so how about all the pregnancies that are terminated by natural causes?" is perfectly valid, even if this booming voice is not interested in answering. (Not that he couldn't give a satisfactory answer: for example, "I knew that would happen and didn't plant souls on those babies" would make sense.)

Consider a prisoner in a nazi deathcamp... he's in no position to ask Hitler or the Nazi party any questions, but if he does wonder how people can commit such atrocities is he just bitching and whining?

That would be quite understandable, but the questions would still remain. Many people are wondering stuff like how are tornadoes formed or what makes volcanoes go off, even if there's no hope of getting direct answers from them. The assumption that people would automatically have to start loving and respecting God if they knew he exists is as ludicruous as loving and respecting a volcano just because we know it's there.

They would "whine and moan" to the extent that people whine and moan about other natural disasters. The reason why they'd consider it a disaster instead of a blessing is the contradictory and nonsensical nature of the world depicted in the bible... you have a God who can't decide whether to kill everyone on Earth or love them and help them out, among other strange quirks. Nobody likes uncertainty and silliness, christians would also be whining if Allah showed up and told them to start praying to Mecca five times a day.

God can't change what's moral or right, showing his existence can only change the playground. If committing an abortion is a guaranteed one-way ticket to hell, then you can bet your bible that every single nation in the world would ban abortion faster than you can say "infanticide". If demonstrated that people have supernatural souls implanted at the time of fertilization, that would mean that pro-choicers were objectively wrong about their assumptions and most would therefore revise their opinions.

That's why answer are needed; to make sense why something is wrong or not a good idea to do. It's the randomness and lack of answers that makes most religions such abysmal belief systems.

If I asked you to give me $100 without explaining myself, would you do it? But on the other hand, if I was selling you a bicycle at $100, you might be more willing to open up your wallet. And when buying a bicycle, you'd probably ask me questions about it, maybe even wanted to see it for yourself before making the deal, yes? Do you think that when you go to a bicycle shop, you are "rebelling" against the salesperson if you ask questions about the price or the quality of his products?

Same with atheists and God. If we can't see the product, there's no sale. If the sale is forced on us anyway (I grab your wallet, take the money, and throw you and the bicycle out of my shop), then we've perfectly good reason to assume we may have been ripped off, don't you think?

Radorth

Jayjay, you are clouding the issues I raised by asking me to reason why God is right or wrong. I specifically asked questions re his nature which I thought you might disagree with so as to avoid getting off the point. Let me ask it this way (though I thought it was obvious)

If you found out God was real, would you fear him even though he did not explain everything to you, or if you personally still believed he was a tyrant. Aren't you in effect asserting that he would have to be a certain way in order for you to respect and obey him? And that unless he answered certain questions to
your satisfaction you would not obey him? Is that fair to say?

If so, then God showing himself to us, or coming down to whack bad guys over the head, or even the NT Jesus coming to judge the world- these would make no difference in whether you were willing to serve him. That is one of my points.

Rad

MrDarwin

I'm afraid I don't understand the question. Radorth, why should I fear a god that is supposed to be both benevolent and merciful?

Athius

I just wanted to say one quick thing about the concept of "Fear of God" and how religions tell you "You must fear god" or "God's wrath" etc. When you fear someone or something there must be a negative or evil characteristic in it that makes you fear him/it. If god is all loving and benevolent then there should be nothing to fear about him. If we must fear god, then god must be partially evil and must do evil things, which means he is not all loving and all nice (just another self-contradictory concept of religion). And even if the god mentioned in the Bible really does exist, I would never fear him, I would oppose him and stand up to him. If god really exists he is the biggest murderer in the universe who has commited the worst and most violent crimes against not only humanity but all of living things. I'm not just talking about the world he has created for us, but the concept of hell: Infinit torture and pain for people who were for example born more "Id-driven" than rest of us, or biologically less moral, or were born in a poor environment lacking any access to true teachings of god, etc. Even humans who are supposed to be far less intelligent than god have come to the conclusion that cruel and unusual punishment is not the answer to any crime, and yet god promises unlimited cruel and unusual punishment for anyone who doesn't serve him. His characteristics sound more like Stalin's than god's.

DMB

Radorth: I love the way xians are so sure they know all about what god is like and what god thinks about things.

How would you react if god showed up in some miraculous fashion and stated that he was pissed off with intolerant xian bigots who are against so much of his creation: homosexuals, raped women who want an abortion, terminally ill people begging for euthanasia, sceptics happily getting on with cultivating their gardens, etc.?

Suppose god said that the bible was a load of tosh and that churches were reprehensible institutions. What would you do?

How about if he said that heaven and hell were non-existent and that this life was the only one you had?

I could go on, but I expect you get the picture. IOW, those of Oliver Cromwell, to be precise,

Mageth

Originally posted by Magus55:

You can ask God to make himself real to you and in time he will - tell him you have a hard time believing and ask him to show you the truth.

That's exactly what I did for most of the first 45 years of my life. Results: I've been an atheist for going on three years now, and foresee no change in the future. If god is so interested in me, why wait so long to answer my heartfelt pleas?

God doesn't make himself blantantly obvious today because if you knew he existed - not many people would deny him - he wants you to love him without having a flashing neon sign appear saying I Am that I Am. Welcome to faith

Umm, why are we different than those in the past to which god supposedly made himself blatantly obvious? Was god not interested in the biblical characters loving him without the neon signs? If it worked for Moses, the disciples, Paul, etc., why not try it on me?

Further, the bible, in the NT, describes the faith of Abraham, Moses, et al, (in Romans, I believe) quite nicely, in spite of the descriptions of god's neon signs he displayed for them.

Of course, supposedly within the near Future will be the Rapture

Yeah, right. The same rapture that Jesus said would take place before the generation alive at that time passed away? The same rapture that has been predicted to happen in the near future countless times in the past 2000 years, including in my church back in the '60s, when it was supposed to happen within no longer than the next 10 years? The same rapture that apologists have spent the last two thousand years trying to explain why it's been delayed?

How many years until people realize that this is a false hope? Another 100? 500? 1000? 2000? 10000?

...where all believers are caught up in Heaven with Jesus and he unleashes his wrath on the unbelieving world ( and the Antichrist ushers in his reign and promotes a lie of peace) - if you aren't so decieved as to believe the AC's lies and take notice of the billion people that instantly vanished - and you don't accep the mark of the beast - you still have a chance even after the obvious evidence.

If that's the particular version of the end times you hold to, anyways; it's been interpreted many different ways, you know. BTW, how will you handle the "obvious evidence" that "coming soon to a lost world near you" is a false hope when at the end of your days, hopefully after a long and happy life, you ponder why Jesus still hasn't returned as he promised he would 2000 years ago, and as you, in your younger days, thought he surely must do soon?

Radorth

To the obedient yes. To the rebellious no- at least not in the end. I never said he was only benevolent so I don't know why you are asking me this.

I suspect you understood the question perfectly, but chose to set up a straw man.

As Paul said Behold the goodness and severity of God.

Take a Zen course. The Bible will become far more clear I'm sure.

Rad

Jayjay

No, I am trying to point out that if God is turned out to be real, those questions (that are usually just asked to point out how silly the biblical world-view is) would be very important regarding one's well-being and survival. I don't understand why you expect that the mere existence of a deity demands that we get on our knees and start groveling.

I would fear him because his presence doesn't explain everything. In fact, the christian God existing doesn't make any sense at all, it would be like finding out I'm living in a Twilight Zone episode. In a world of uncertainty where I never know whether God would decide to punish me for someone else's disobedience, or where I could plunge into my death when the pilot of an airplane I'm in gets raptured, or where demons and holy spirits inject thoughts in my head so I cannot even know what goes on inside my own head, there would would most certainly be reason to be afraid. The questioning and reasoning is a way to get rid of the fear.

Another thing that boggles the mind is why you think that fear, love and obedience are connected to each other? If there was a clear and guaranteed punishment for particular behaviour, I'd stop that behaviour (or take the punishment, if it's lesser of two evils), but then again if I knew this, there's be no reason to fear. And why should I love or respect a deity? Out of fear? That's insane.

They'd make a big difference. If I knew there was a guy in the sky who'd whack me if I did something, I'd certainly not do that thing. Especially if I had reason to believe that the "sky daddy" would have my best interests in mind, which is something the biblical God doesn't explicity demonstrate (like you seem to agree, he doesn't explain himself to anyone).

This "whacking bad guys over the head" strawman is just a christian storytelling device, which is used to "demonstrate" that people wouldn't change their minds even if they knew how things really were. Like the story about Lazurus and the rich man; it implies that nobody would change their ways if their dead relatives contacted them from hell, which is just silly. I for one would. Another example is what Family Man said about Exodus: you just don't start worshipping a golden calf if you've seen Moses part the Red Sea. These fictional stories are propaganda to help christians convert more drones in their armies, so of course they make stupid assertions like that.

Radorth

Yeah we've pretty well agreed since the Nicene Creed was written. The Catholics took leave of justification by faith, and invented some new stuff it is true, but seem to have returned to the fold. We know that because Amos is ever complaining about Protestants creeping in. We all read the same Bible, and there is nothing I believe which can't be found in some classic commentary.

I didn't say that. I asked if you would respect him and obey him. You shouldn't complain about strwmen so much- it makes you look like a fellow hypocrite.

This "whacking" idea has been suggested by skeptics. And I don't think it's "silly" at all to say people will fall away from faith. They do it all the time even though they still believe God exists and even that they might go to hell for disobeying him. Further we have heard skeptics say they WOULD NOT serve God if he was like the Biblical God. One said he would rather "burn in hell than serve in heaven."

So either you are an unusual case, or they were not being truthful- or maybe people would just react differently depending on how rebellious and depraved they were.

Rad