Radorth

I see no consistency at all in the skeptic’s position on this subject. We hear that an “omnipotent” God ought to come down and strike fear into certain hearts, fix all our problems and make us behave, (except the skeptic making the assertion, who says s/he takes personal responsibility and has no need). And yet we hear that the “Christian” God depends almost entirely on fear to control people and abuses his power. Then we hear that it wouldn’t really matter what he did because “I’d rather burn in hell than serve in heaven.” Or what amounts to “I’d just ask him a lot of questions about why he was such a jerk.”

Of course when we are given scriptures from the OT (usually) about God’s many sins and mean behavior, we never hear about when he DID come down during the Exodus and whether it helped. The rest of the story is left for me to point out. Well, it didn’t help much, given all their bitching and whining, so I suppose I would agree with those skeptics who say it wouldn’t matter. Meanwhile, one could reasonably take all these assertions and conclude that God is doing what he can, given our attitudes.

If we ask how exactly God was supposed to get an entire “stiff-necked” people out of the wilderness without knocking off 250 rebellious leaders, we are assured God could have found a way just because he’s God. Well he did find a way, which amounted to kicking ass after trying every other benevolent means- working miracles via Moses, pleading, epihanies, moving clouds, parting seas and sending manna, which had little or no effect after 30+ years. The typical skeptic’s answer? “That never happened because there is no God, so I won’t think about it.”

The Bible tells us “The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.” This “fear” as the NT defines is more an “awe” of God. This is what Acts talks about, and which the disciples felt when they saw the manifestations of God then. There God wanted to establish the authority of his apostles by working miracles and causing hundreds to speak in tongues. Using Ananias and Saphira’s example, he also caused the church to fear him if they treated the Holy Spirit sent to them as anyone but God. (I believe they were saved anyway, and simply used as an example). It helped a little.

Whatever you believe, I challenge skeptics to tell us honestly what would make you personally fear God, how you would change your life if you found there was a God much as described in the Bible, etc Would you be like the woman who told Elijah, “We saw what your God did and we feared him”? (not sure of exact wording or location) Do you think the fear of our God is a good thing or not? How exactly should God have impressed on the early church that it ought not to lie to the Holy Spirit? You have freely judged and questioned our God, his methods, inconsistencies, etc. Now let us freely judge and question how consistent you are, and whether your own “benevolent designer God” would be any more respected, loved, or obeyed. So far all I’ve seen is rather inconsistent, short-sighted avoidance of complex issues, or suggestions which virtually eliminate free will.

Rad

Spaz

Well to change me personally he'd have to do something now, and not something a couple thousand years ago that's written in a book. If this god created us he gave us our brains and should know that everybody isn't going to follow something just because it's written in a book and has whatever number followers. I feel that if there's a god that created the universe it wouldn't be like in the bible, but wouldn't care if you worshipped him or not. IMO the god in the bible seems to have too much human emotion, something I think a god would not have.

Radorth

So when Jesus wept over Jerusalem or because people had so little faith, he was being "too emotional" in your opinion? Also you do not tell us what exactly God would have to do to make you believe, and how you would change. These are essential to your reponse since it addresses the several issues I raised.

Rad

Ojuice5001

I think of Yahweh as being this powerful god who rules Christendom, whose influence is waning but who is still powerful. After reading in the Old Testament how much he hates people who worship other gods or none at all, yes I fear him. However, not everyone belongs to Yahweh. I belong to the Roman goddess Postverta. And Yahweh can't just freely claim, kill, or seriously injure a person who belongs to another god, any more than you are free to break another person's window. Nor does Yahweh have any say in what my afterlife is like.

Now, if someone proved that Yahweh and Satan are real, and the other gods are fictional, I would probably spend a few years trying to get around the choice between two crazed tyrants; what made me leave Christianity in the first place was the idea that Yahweh's and Satan's natures exhaust the list of what the supernatural is like. If that failed, I would become a Christian.

Spaz

god would not have to do anything more than something that simply couldn't be done otherwise, make a tornado lead a path in the ground very unlike normal tornadoes, and make that path spell out "I'm God" or something like that, there's an example, heh. And regarding Jesus, when I interpret what god is like from the bible I usually look at the OT and see the god that is jealous, and angry, something I wouldn't think a god would be.

Magus55

You can ask God to make himself real to you and in time he will - tell him you have a hard time believing and ask him to show you the truth.

God doesn't make himself blantantly obvious today because if you knew he existed - not many people would deny him - he wants you to love him without having a flashing neon sign appear saying I Am that I Am. Welcome to faith

Of course, supposedly within the near Future will be the Rapture where all believers are caught up in Heaven with Jesus and he unleashes his wrath on the unbelieving world ( and the Antichrist ushers in his reign and promotes a lie of peace) - if you aren't so decieved as to believe the AC's lies and take notice of the billion people that instantly vanished - and you don't accep the mark of the beast - you still have a chance even after the obvious evidence.

ybnormal

Rad:
Also you do not tell us what exactly God would have to do to make you believe, and how you would change. These are essential to your reponse since it addresses the several issues I raised.

Well, only if it's essential... for starters he would have to double the size of my penis, and of course make me 15 years old again... but you'll have to ask if you really want to hear what I'd do different. You can PM me if you'd like.

PS: RE the fear of ?God... I fear nothing!

Radorth

What do you mean, again?

Rad

Radorth

Well OK, then you would "believe" in God. But you are avoiding the other questions. What effect would it have on you? What if he said in a loud voice that abortion was wrong, or that homosexuality was a sin? How would you react? How would you live your life differently? Would you believe Jesus is his son? Would your character change? What would be the benefit to God? Why should he do that for you?

Rad

WWSD

Originally posted by Magus55
You can ask God to make himself real to you and in time he will - tell him you have a hard time believing and ask him to show you the truth.

And when no god appears, many people lsot thier faith completely. This is a fruitless path anf the only response that a theist ever has for its failure is "you didn't try hard enough."

Which is silly, because unless the theist is omniscient, he or she really cannot know whether that statement is true or not. Thus it must be abandoned. IIMO of course.


God doesn't make himself blantantly obvious today because if you knew he existed - not many people would deny him - he wants you to love him without having a flashing neon sign appear saying I Am that I Am. Welcome to faith

This still makes no sense to me. If I wanted someone to love me, I would not hide from them and hope that the form letter I published ages ago, which they may or may not have read, would impress them.

I would probably call them and chat with them. Or drop by for a visit some Saturday afternoon.

The idea that god wants people to beleive in him, while simultaneoulsly failing to demonstrate his existence, is contradictory.

Additionally, simply knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt would not make me love this god, so therefore it is fine that he demonstrated himself to me, as I would have to then make up my mind, based on his merits as a being, whether he deserves my affection or not.


Of course, supposedly within the near Future will be the Rapture where all believers are caught up in Heaven with Jesus and he unleashes his wrath on the unbelieving world ( and the Antichrist ushers in his reign and promotes a lie of peace) - if you aren't so decieved as to believe the AC's lies and take notice of the billion people that instantly vanished - and you don't accep the mark of the beast - you still have a chance even after the obvious evidence.

First of all, you'll have to demonstrate that a god exists.

Then you will have to demonstrate that the god deomntrated is the god of your bible.

Perhaps then I might place some faith in this little tale of terror. But how it is supposed to make me "love" the perpetrator of all of the death and destruction described in revelations is beyond me.