Freethought & Rationalism Archive

eldar1011 · 07-01-2002, 01:30 PM

I'm not sure where to post this, as I couldn't find a suitable thread...so, I'm starting a new one.

I wanted to speak out in a forum of like-minded individuals. I am new to "Internet Infidels" and will soon be new to political activism.

I've been the subject of racism in the past. But, it's always been "personal". A couple of schoolyard bullies and such. I don't normally discuss my atheism, unless specifically asked or when I'm in the company of good friends, several of whom are theists. I've never been persecuted (I'm reluctant to use that term, it seems overly dramatic) for being an atheist. I've always been a fairly laidback person. "Live and let live" is my personal motto.

However, the recent ruling and subsequent outcry has infuriated me. In the past few days, I've seen great vehemence and disdain directed toward atheists. Even worse, there's an almost institutional acceptance of this intolerance...from elected officials to the "liberal" media.

My eyes have been opened to the intolerance that atheists face. I've always thought that fundamentalist intolerance was the providence of more extreme fanatics and not the prevailing mindset of the public at large. However, I keep seeing and hearing "man in the street" interviews that demonstrate an incredible lack of understanding of the American Constitution and the establishment clause.

I see the same thing amongst politicians and pundits alike. It's one thing to pander to the religious right, but this willfull disregard of what I consider to be American ideals is disgusting.

All of this has prompted me to take a more active role. I intend to join a local atheist political action group. I am ashamed to admit that I'm not well-informed about the agenda of such an organization.

I understand that "atheism", in and of itself, is not something that lends itself to being a rallying point. While we may all share our non-belief, we probably differ greatly on other issues.

Based on this forum and my lurkings in alt.atheism, I believe that many atheists are reasonably intelligent and rational people. We tend to be well-informed. We seem to make up a fair percentage of the American population. Surely, atheists can become a political force to be reckoned with.

But, what would be considered an atheist agenda? How are our rights infringed upon? Does the agenda go beyond political activism? Does it include social activism? Does it involve more than the "under god" Pledge or the national motto?

I'm asking because I want to be informed. I want to stand up and be counted. I want to speak out for myself. I want to do *something*.

HY

Toto · 07-01-2002, 04:09 PM

Organizing atheists is like herding cats. It's a lot easier to herd sheep, so the sheep tend to have more political influence. If you can solve that conumdrum, you may be president someday, or at least the power behind the throne.

American Atheists ( <a href="http://www.atheists.org" target="_blank">www.atheists.org</a> ) is Madalyn Murray O'Hare's old organization. It would like to be the sort of organization that you are looking for, but hasn't been able to shake off the problems associated with Madalyn's rep. It is an organization with a paid staff. They are sponsoring the godless march on Washington, which you will want to attend.

The main alternative is the Atheist Alliance ( <a href="http://www.atheistalliance.org" target="_blank">www.atheistalliance.org</a> ) which is a democratic organization with all the good and bad that implies. It is actually an umbrella organzation for a number of groups. There are long standing problems between American Atheists and the Alliance which make me pessimistic about either being the source of political progress. This might change if there were an influx of new commited persons such as yourself.

You may also be interested in joining the Freedom from Religion Foundation ( <a href="http://www.ffrf.org" target="_blank">www.ffrf.org</a> ).

The above organizations are single issue organizations, and tend to avoid branching out into other issues. Since most non-believers do not feel very threatened by religion in this society and tend to have other greater concerns (global warming, overpopulation, choice, etc) they are not members.

The "agenda" is primarily one of separation of church and state and promoting the social acceptance of atheism. I wish I could say that they were more effective. You notice that none were involved with the recent Ninth Circuit case.

You may also think of yourself as a humanist, and there are a variety of humanist organizations out there - the American Humanist Association ( <a href="http://www.americanhumanist.org" target="_blank">www.americanhumanist.org</a> ) or Paul Kurtz' Council for Secular Humanism, which publishes the excellent magazine Free Inquiry ( <a href="http://www.secularhumanism.org" target="_blank">www.secularhumanism.org</a> ) - you will want to join for that reason alone.

Humanism implies stances that go beyond non-belief in God - concern for humanity, civil liberties, etc.

Many atheists belong to all of these.

However, atheists who want to be politically effective are more likely to get involved in politics in other ways - joining the ACLU or Americans United for Separation of Church and State, or just joining the Democratic Party and trying to work on issues.

It looks like you can make contact with other DC area atheists <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=43&t=000259&p=" target="_blank">listed here</a>.

[ July 01, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

Pensee · 07-01-2002, 04:38 PM

Welcome! That was a wonderful first post!

Toto gave some really good suggestions.

I would also like to add that you can sign up for <a href="http://forms.aclu.org/team/member.cfm" target="_blank">ACLU e-mail alerts</a>. You don't have to become a member for this service. They'll e-mail you anytime something political comes up that they deem important enough to take action. They usually also provide a way for you to get in touch with whoever needs to be notified (like your senators or the Pres) through free faxes or e-mail. I agree with them for the most part, but I have *not* "taken action" before due to a difference in opinion. But that's okay; I don't think anyone will agree with anyone else 100% of the time. On the whole, it's a relatively easy way to keep informed on important issues and to keep you on your toes when it comes to letting your representatives know your opinions. Obviously, it's not an end-all solution, but IMHO, it's a great start.

GaryP · 07-01-2002, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:
<strong>

However, atheists who want to be politically effective are more likely to get involved in politics in other ways - joining the ACLU or Americans United for Separation of Church and State, or just joining the Democratic Party and trying to work on issues.

[ July 01, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</strong>

Toto-- I agree with all you said except for the Democratic Party. I have contributed to them for years but their display of pandering this past week has made me seriously question their commitment to separation issues.

Another guy I support is <a href="http://robsherman.com/" target="_blank">Rob Sherman</a>
from Chicago.

The Other Michael · 07-01-2002, 04:58 PM

Hi Toto,

in an article (page 2) from this mornings SF Chronicle (by Stephanie Simon of the LA Times) largely about the FFRF it was mentioned that the FFRF's attorney did advise the Pledge plaintiff on his legal briefs.

<a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2002/07/01/MN208318.DTL" target="_blank">Atheist organization jubilant . . .</a>

It was a fairly positive article, though I found it interesting that the closing is that the Family Research Council is concerned about the FFRF is trying to distort the Constitution (Pot-Kettle?).

I sent an email to Kevin Fagan, a Chronicle staffer, for his article from Sunday's paper:

<a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/06/30/IN70920.DTL" target="_blank">THE PLEDGE - Religion Divides Us Court was right to dump God</a>

I think it behooves everyone to drop a note to the writers of any column that is even slighly positive thanking them for taking the effort to make some sense.

cheers,
Michael

PS:
Here are the writers' email addresses:

Stephanie.Simon@latimes.com
kfagan@sfchronicle.com

[ July 01, 2002: Message edited by: The Other Michael ]</p>

DougI · 07-01-2002, 07:07 PM

Don't forget that you could simply start a local organization as well. The large Atheist orgs tend to work on a national level but there are many smaller groups needed to work on a local level. Our group just had a nice protest against Dick Cheney today. Oddly enough the only other people protesting him were Fred Phelp's rather large family. I must say they were the nicest Xians I've run into in quite some time since they never once bothered to convert us.

Some groups just like to talk, others behave more like a social club. I don't care to talk trash about other organizations but the ones that actually do some activism are American Atheists and Freedom From Religion. All the other groups I've belonged to just treat me like a paycheck.

There wasn't an Atheist organization in my state so I had to create one. What I did was simply scour the internet for anyone identified as an Atheist living in Kansas. Started a group on yahoogroups, got my name published in a few papers, then it grew from there.

Good luck and don't forget the power one individual has. Heck, one just pissed off the entire nation by restoring the pledge.

The Other Michael · 07-02-2002, 09:55 AM

I got a short email today from Kevin Fagan, the SF Chronicle writer, thanking me for my note and saying that he appreciates the support.

I think that everyone here needs to make a BIG point of telling the writer of any pro-secular story that their efforts are appreciated, and so encourage them to keep writing stories with a secular POV.

Those kinds of articles are thin on the ground at best of times, and if the writers don't get any positive feedback they may figure there is no audience for those articles.

cheers,
Michael

eldar1011 · 07-02-2002, 10:36 AM

Thanks to all of you for good information, particularly Toto. There's plenty out there for me to research now.

Stardust, I might just look into the ACLU. While I may not necessarily agree with everything they do, I'm grateful that such an organization exists.

DougI, I appreciate the words of caution and encouragement. I doubt I'll need to start my own organization, there seems to be a fair amount of atheist/humanists groups in the DC area. And to be honest, I'm too susceptible to becoming a demogogue.

The Other Michael, I've written an email to Mr. Fagan about his article. You're right, we need to show support or no one will ever speak out.

HY

07-01-2002, 01:30 PM	#1
eldar1011 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 1,074	Birth of an activist I'm not sure where to post this, as I couldn't find a suitable thread...so, I'm starting a new one. I wanted to speak out in a forum of like-minded individuals. I am new to "Internet Infidels" and will soon be new to political activism. I've been the subject of racism in the past. But, it's always been "personal". A couple of schoolyard bullies and such. I don't normally discuss my atheism, unless specifically asked or when I'm in the company of good friends, several of whom are theists. I've never been persecuted (I'm reluctant to use that term, it seems overly dramatic) for being an atheist. I've always been a fairly laidback person. "Live and let live" is my personal motto. However, the recent ruling and subsequent outcry has infuriated me. In the past few days, I've seen great vehemence and disdain directed toward atheists. Even worse, there's an almost institutional acceptance of this intolerance...from elected officials to the "liberal" media. My eyes have been opened to the intolerance that atheists face. I've always thought that fundamentalist intolerance was the providence of more extreme fanatics and not the prevailing mindset of the public at large. However, I keep seeing and hearing "man in the street" interviews that demonstrate an incredible lack of understanding of the American Constitution and the establishment clause. I see the same thing amongst politicians and pundits alike. It's one thing to pander to the religious right, but this willfull disregard of what I consider to be American ideals is disgusting. All of this has prompted me to take a more active role. I intend to join a local atheist political action group. I am ashamed to admit that I'm not well-informed about the agenda of such an organization. I understand that "atheism", in and of itself, is not something that lends itself to being a rallying point. While we may all share our non-belief, we probably differ greatly on other issues. Based on this forum and my lurkings in alt.atheism, I believe that many atheists are reasonably intelligent and rational people. We tend to be well-informed. We seem to make up a fair percentage of the American population. Surely, atheists can become a political force to be reckoned with. But, what would be considered an atheist agenda? How are our rights infringed upon? Does the agenda go beyond political activism? Does it include social activism? Does it involve more than the "under god" Pledge or the national motto? I'm asking because I want to be informed. I want to stand up and be counted. I want to speak out for myself. I want to do something. HY

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07-01-2002, 04:09 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Organizing atheists is like herding cats. It's a lot easier to herd sheep, so the sheep tend to have more political influence. If you can solve that conumdrum, you may be president someday, or at least the power behind the throne. American Atheists ( <a href="http://www.atheists.org" target="_blank">www.atheists.org</a> ) is Madalyn Murray O'Hare's old organization. It would like to be the sort of organization that you are looking for, but hasn't been able to shake off the problems associated with Madalyn's rep. It is an organization with a paid staff. They are sponsoring the godless march on Washington, which you will want to attend. The main alternative is the Atheist Alliance ( <a href="http://www.atheistalliance.org" target="_blank">www.atheistalliance.org</a> ) which is a democratic organization with all the good and bad that implies. It is actually an umbrella organzation for a number of groups. There are long standing problems between American Atheists and the Alliance which make me pessimistic about either being the source of political progress. This might change if there were an influx of new commited persons such as yourself. You may also be interested in joining the Freedom from Religion Foundation ( <a href="http://www.ffrf.org" target="_blank">www.ffrf.org</a> ). The above organizations are single issue organizations, and tend to avoid branching out into other issues. Since most non-believers do not feel very threatened by religion in this society and tend to have other greater concerns (global warming, overpopulation, choice, etc) they are not members. The "agenda" is primarily one of separation of church and state and promoting the social acceptance of atheism. I wish I could say that they were more effective. You notice that none were involved with the recent Ninth Circuit case. You may also think of yourself as a humanist, and there are a variety of humanist organizations out there - the American Humanist Association ( <a href="http://www.americanhumanist.org" target="_blank">www.americanhumanist.org</a> ) or Paul Kurtz' Council for Secular Humanism, which publishes the excellent magazine Free Inquiry ( <a href="http://www.secularhumanism.org" target="_blank">www.secularhumanism.org</a> ) - you will want to join for that reason alone. Humanism implies stances that go beyond non-belief in God - concern for humanity, civil liberties, etc. Many atheists belong to all of these. However, atheists who want to be politically effective are more likely to get involved in politics in other ways - joining the ACLU or Americans United for Separation of Church and State, or just joining the Democratic Party and trying to work on issues. It looks like you can make contact with other DC area atheists <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=43&t=000259&p=" target="_blank">listed here</a>. [ July 01, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

07-01-2002, 04:38 PM	#3
Pensee Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: florida Posts: 657	Welcome! That was a wonderful first post! Toto gave some really good suggestions. I would also like to add that you can sign up for <a href="http://forms.aclu.org/team/member.cfm" target="_blank">ACLU e-mail alerts</a>. You don't have to become a member for this service. They'll e-mail you anytime something political comes up that they deem important enough to take action. They usually also provide a way for you to get in touch with whoever needs to be notified (like your senators or the Pres) through free faxes or e-mail. I agree with them for the most part, but I have not "taken action" before due to a difference in opinion. But that's okay; I don't think anyone will agree with anyone else 100% of the time. On the whole, it's a relatively easy way to keep informed on important issues and to keep you on your toes when it comes to letting your representatives know your opinions. Obviously, it's not an end-all solution, but IMHO, it's a great start.

07-01-2002, 04:58 PM	#5
The Other Michael Honorary Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In the fog of San Francisco Posts: 12,631	Hi Toto, in an article (page 2) from this mornings SF Chronicle (by Stephanie Simon of the LA Times) largely about the FFRF it was mentioned that the FFRF's attorney did advise the Pledge plaintiff on his legal briefs. <a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2002/07/01/MN208318.DTL" target="_blank">Atheist organization jubilant . . .</a> It was a fairly positive article, though I found it interesting that the closing is that the Family Research Council is concerned about the FFRF is trying to distort the Constitution (Pot-Kettle?). I sent an email to Kevin Fagan, a Chronicle staffer, for his article from Sunday's paper: <a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/06/30/IN70920.DTL" target="_blank">THE PLEDGE - Religion Divides Us Court was right to dump God</a> I think it behooves everyone to drop a note to the writers of any column that is even slighly positive thanking them for taking the effort to make some sense. cheers, Michael PS: Here are the writers' email addresses: Stephanie.Simon@latimes.com kfagan@sfchronicle.com [ July 01, 2002: Message edited by: The Other Michael ]</p>

07-01-2002, 07:07 PM	#6
DougI Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Wichita, KS, USA Posts: 932	Don't forget that you could simply start a local organization as well. The large Atheist orgs tend to work on a national level but there are many smaller groups needed to work on a local level. Our group just had a nice protest against Dick Cheney today. Oddly enough the only other people protesting him were Fred Phelp's rather large family. I must say they were the nicest Xians I've run into in quite some time since they never once bothered to convert us. Some groups just like to talk, others behave more like a social club. I don't care to talk trash about other organizations but the ones that actually do some activism are American Atheists and Freedom From Religion. All the other groups I've belonged to just treat me like a paycheck. There wasn't an Atheist organization in my state so I had to create one. What I did was simply scour the internet for anyone identified as an Atheist living in Kansas. Started a group on yahoogroups, got my name published in a few papers, then it grew from there. Good luck and don't forget the power one individual has. Heck, one just pissed off the entire nation by restoring the pledge.

07-02-2002, 09:55 AM	#7
The Other Michael Honorary Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In the fog of San Francisco Posts: 12,631	I got a short email today from Kevin Fagan, the SF Chronicle writer, thanking me for my note and saying that he appreciates the support. I think that everyone here needs to make a BIG point of telling the writer of any pro-secular story that their efforts are appreciated, and so encourage them to keep writing stories with a secular POV. Those kinds of articles are thin on the ground at best of times, and if the writers don't get any positive feedback they may figure there is no audience for those articles. cheers, Michael

07-02-2002, 10:36 AM	#8
eldar1011 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 1,074	Thanks to all of you for good information, particularly Toto. There's plenty out there for me to research now. Stardust, I might just look into the ACLU. While I may not necessarily agree with everything they do, I'm grateful that such an organization exists. DougI, I appreciate the words of caution and encouragement. I doubt I'll need to start my own organization, there seems to be a fair amount of atheist/humanists groups in the DC area. And to be honest, I'm too susceptible to becoming a demogogue. The Other Michael, I've written an email to Mr. Fagan about his article. You're right, we need to show support or no one will ever speak out. HY

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