Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 03-02-2002, 06:14 PM

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/02/arts/02ISLA.html" target="_blank">Radical New Views of Islam and the Origins of the Koran</a>

Quote:

...
The reverberations have affected non-Muslim scholars in Western countries. "Between fear and political correctness, it's not possible to say anything other than sugary nonsense about Islam," said one scholar at an American university who asked not to be named, referring to the threatened violence as well as the widespread reluctance on United States college campuses to criticize other cultures.

While scriptural interpretation may seem like a remote and innocuous activity, close textual study of Jewish and Christian scripture played no small role in loosening the Church's domination on the intellectual and cultural life of Europe, and paving the way for unfettered secular thought. "The Muslims have the benefit of hindsight of the European experience, and they know very well that once you start questioning the holy scriptures, you don't know where it will stop," the scholar explained.

...

And it seems that the martyr will not find 72 virgins (hori), but 72 white raisins (hor). That would stop those suicide bombers.

Undercurrent · 03-02-2002, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:

And it seems that the martyr will not find 72 virgins (hori), but 72 white raisins (hor). That would stop those suicide bombers.

ROTFL. Too bad, the muslims at least used to have a cool afterlife.

m.

MzNeko · 03-03-2002, 11:12 AM

Yah, but it's only a cool afterlife if you're a man.

I'm not converting to Islam unless when I get to Paradise, I get 72 gorgeous young men who have to obey my every whim!

Mendeh · 03-04-2002, 11:34 AM

Erm, that'd be 72 gorgeous white raisins who obey your every whim, I think you'll find.

MzNeko · 03-04-2002, 01:44 PM

Raisins, huh?

*sudden mental picture of being waited on hand and foot by those claymation California Raisins from those commercials*

Hmmm... I think I'll pass...

MzNeko · 03-04-2002, 04:05 PM

I really don't understand what's up with the virgin thing anyway. I can't help thinking that 72 experienced, highly skilled women would be a lot more fun to spend eternity with...

Maybe I'm missin' something.

Mendeh · 03-05-2002, 07:27 AM

Look, will you please get away from the stupid and, quite frankly, heretical idea that 72 virgins await you in paradise, okay? It has been pointed out already that you're getting dried fruits, so if you don't want to bring the wrath of the Almighty upon you, bloody stop moaning about experience.

emotional · 03-05-2002, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:

And it seems that the martyr will not find 72 virgins (hori), but 72 white raisins (hor). That would stop those suicide bombers.

I doubt it. Besides the fact that an Arabic word without the final -i (more accurately -iyy) can serve as the plural (so that hor still stays "virgin"), the Qur'an is quite clear on that the believers shall get azwaajun mutahharatum mina l-haid, meaning "mates purified from menstruation" (women who don't have all those funny things which they have on earth).

BTW, a suicide attacker gunned down people in Tel-Aviv, quite close to where I work. It was after midnight. He shot towards a restaurant, and killed three people, until he was shot dead himself. He will be neither rewarded nor punished, but become food for the worms like all of us. There is no judgement and no judge, and no other world. Morality in a godless universe has to be based on intrinsic obligation and not on externally imposed reward and punishment.

MzNeko · 03-05-2002, 09:05 AM

Actually, as far as the raisins thing goes...

I can't help thinking that if there is a God, he has one nasty sense of humor. So the raisin thing brought to mind this little scene:

*In the afterlife*

Terrorist:
"Yay! I made it to Paradise! Okay, God where's my reward?"

God hands him something.
"There you go. Good job."

Terrorist examines his reward, frowns
"Um, God, these are raisins. Where are my 72 girls?"

"The book clearly says 'raisins'."

"But I could have gone down to the corner market for raisins! You mean I've killed myself for a handful of dried fruit?!?

(smirking)
"Not my fault if you read into it what you really want."

"But what the hell am I supposed to do with these?"

"Make a fruit salad or something. Not my problem. Damn, you humans seem to get dumber every millenia."

Toto · 03-05-2002, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by devnet:


I doubt it. Besides the fact that an Arabic word without the final -i (more accurately -iyy) can serve as the plural (so that hor still stays "virgin"), the Qur'an is quite clear on that the believers shall get azwaajun mutahharatum mina l-haid, meaning "mates purified from menstruation" (women who don't have all those funny things which they have on earth).
...

I'm glad the suicide bomber didn't get you, Devnet. You are right that in the emotions of war and nationalism, people have given their lives for a lot less than 72 raisins.

I haven't studied the Qu'ran. The "white raisin" bit is justified this way:

Quote:

Mr. Luxenberg's radical theory is that many of the text's difficulties can be clarified when it is seen as closely related to Aramaic, the language group of most Middle Eastern Jews and Christians at the time.

For example, the famous passage about the virgins is based on the word hur, which is an adjective in the feminine plural meaning simply "white." Islamic tradition insists the term hur stands for "houri," which means virgin, but Mr. Luxenberg insists that this is a forced misreading of the text. In both ancient Aramaic and in at least one respected dictionary of early Arabic, hur means "white raisin."

Mr. Luxenberg has traced the passages dealing with paradise to a Christian text called Hymns of Paradise by a fourth-century author. Mr. Luxenberg said the word paradise was derived from the Aramaic word for garden and all the descriptions of paradise described it as a garden of flowing waters, abundant fruits and white raisins, a prized delicacy in the ancient Near East. In this context, white raisins, mentioned often as hur, Mr. Luxenberg said, makes more sense than a reward of sexual favors.

The 4th century Christian text is described <a href="http://answering-islam.de/Quran/Sources/qurchr3.html" target="_blank">here</a> as written by the "greatest preacher of the Syrian Church", Afrem (Ephraim the Syrian).

Of course, a religious text that had only one clear meaning is probably not worth the paper it is printed on, so the early Muslims may have knowingly included hints of both meanings, one for the children and one for the more knowing adults. The site above quotes Afrem as linking the two:

Quote:

'Whoever has abstained from wine on earth, for him do the vines of paradise yearn. Each one of them holds out to him a bunch of grapes. And if a man lived in chastity, they (feminine) receive him in a pure bosom and bed of earthly love.'

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03-03-2002, 11:12 AM	#3
MzNeko Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Long Beach, California Posts: 1,127	Yah, but it's only a cool afterlife if you're a man. I'm not converting to Islam unless when I get to Paradise, I get 72 gorgeous young men who have to obey my every whim!

03-04-2002, 11:34 AM	#4
Mendeh Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: London, England Posts: 302	Erm, that'd be 72 gorgeous white raisins who obey your every whim, I think you'll find.

03-04-2002, 01:44 PM	#5
MzNeko Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Long Beach, California Posts: 1,127	Raisins, huh? sudden mental picture of being waited on hand and foot by those claymation California Raisins from those commercials Hmmm... I think I'll pass...

03-04-2002, 04:05 PM	#6
MzNeko Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Long Beach, California Posts: 1,127	I really don't understand what's up with the virgin thing anyway. I can't help thinking that 72 experienced, highly skilled women would be a lot more fun to spend eternity with... Maybe I'm missin' something.

03-05-2002, 07:27 AM	#7
Mendeh Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: London, England Posts: 302	Look, will you please get away from the stupid and, quite frankly, heretical idea that 72 virgins await you in paradise, okay? It has been pointed out already that you're getting dried fruits, so if you don't want to bring the wrath of the Almighty upon you, bloody stop moaning about experience.

03-05-2002, 09:05 AM	#9
MzNeko Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Long Beach, California Posts: 1,127	Actually, as far as the raisins thing goes... I can't help thinking that if there is a God, he has one nasty sense of humor. So the raisin thing brought to mind this little scene: In the afterlife Terrorist: "Yay! I made it to Paradise! Okay, God where's my reward?" God hands him something. "There you go. Good job." Terrorist examines his reward, frowns "Um, God, these are raisins. Where are my 72 girls?" "The book clearly says 'raisins'." "But I could have gone down to the corner market for raisins! You mean I've killed myself for a handful of dried fruit?!? (smirking) "Not my fault if you read into it what you really want." "But what the hell am I supposed to do with these?" "Make a fruit salad or something. Not my problem. Damn, you humans seem to get dumber every millenia."

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