Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Godot · 03-23-2003, 09:28 PM

To be fair, I already know that you can not actually do this, because that request contains a blatant logical fallacy. There is no way for you to prove that she doesn't exist, but despite this you still don't seem to be in a hurry to worship. Oddly enough, this is the entire point.

So let me get this straight.... because I cannot commit a logical fallacy in disproving the existence of an IPU, I am obligated to worship and believe in one?
Is it then a logical corollary to draw form this statement of yours that all those that believe in some higher form of benevolent dictator are incapable of rational, logical thought processes?

BioBeing · 03-23-2003, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godot
To be fair, I already know that you can not actually do this, because that request contains a blatant logical fallacy. There is no way for you to prove that she doesn't exist, but despite this you still don't seem to be in a hurry to worship. Oddly enough, this is the entire point.

So let me get this straight.... because I cannot commit a logical fallacy in disproving the existence of an IPU, I am obligated to worship and believe in one?
Is it then a logical corollary to draw form this statement of yours that all those that believe in some higher form of benevolent dictator are incapable of rational, logical thought processes?

Not that you were asking me but , no - the individual is not necessarily incapable of rational thought, just that the worship of an invisble friend (of any kind) is not a rational, logical thought.

BioBeing · 03-23-2003, 09:40 PM

Angrillori - my ribeyes are waiting on the gasoline and match fire. I love that post in both threads!

7thangel · 03-23-2003, 10:24 PM

ORAC said: Maybe you don't understand the Invisible Pink Unicorn, or you'ld realise that God is an IPU. (I think you're most of the way there - you've already acknowledged that your God, just like Krishna, Kali, and the IPU are invisible non-tangible beings.)

Still, if you're right, feel free to post your proof that the IPU does not exist. If you can't prove that she is made up, then you will be obliged to worship Her because your lack of proof is itself proof of Her existance.

I do not promote the IPU concept. Those who debate about this is too foolish in my opinion. The GRAVITY and the MIND are invisible things. And you cannot just use any word to describe of their concepts, same as of God. GRAVITY and MIND are not IPUs.

ORAC said:To be fair, I already know that you can not actually do this, because that request contains a blatant logical fallacy. There is no way for you to prove that she doesn't exist, but despite this you still don't seem to be in a hurry to worship. Oddly enough, this is the entire point.

You still expect us to worship your IPU, though.

Sorry, you have mistaken me.

7thangel · 03-23-2003, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Angrillori
Alright, I copied and pasted this from another thread where I originally wrote it, but I think it applies more here.

Why should god follow our test? Because it is his (universal you always say) standard. He previously set for us what the physical test for a diety's existance is. Look:

Stangely enough, there was a time when people had turned away from god to other gods. So, god's prophet 'called the other gods out' so to speak. Read:

Interesting....following another god, not believing in god...seems all the Gideon apologetics need to find another word track since this time god IS making signs for the unbelievers...

In our day, if god is god then follow him, if there is no god, don't. Seems fair enough.

Well seems the tables have turned eh? Seems the god-ites outnumber the atheist prophets eh?

But, since we atheists don't believe in god, instead of prayers for fire, we get gasoline and matches. Whoever gets fire wins right? You get your god to make it, I get mine.

Would Elijah be an atheist today? Surely god seems to be deep in thought, busy, traveling, or sleeping!

No answer huh? No miracle huh? Is that the biblical test for the non-existance of a particular diety? Then we've got it easy!

Well here's our prayer to convert the atheists! Any one of our god-ites care to try it! I've got a big backyard, come by, I'll even have snacks available!

And, if my gasoline fire starts before your god-fire, I promise I won't even round you up and kill you!

Anyways, that's the biblical test for a diety's existance. But don't take my word for it, don't take ANYONE's word for it. Read the bible yourself.

The Bible is intentionally written to be misunderstood by the lost. You have misunderstandood the bible, and then use it against me. The story you quoted is actually supporting my post. It will be useless for you to have proof of God's existence if you are ignorant of the godhead.

HRG · 03-23-2003, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Celsus
Ok, how about you post the most convincing argument and evidence for the resurrection. It must be substantial and well-documented (multiple-source corroboration, and by that, I do not mean the 4 gospels, but extra-Biblical sources), it must rule out all plausible natural explanations,

More than that - it also must rule out all competing supernatural explanations: for instance, that Loki created a gigantic illusion in order to turn away people from Odin and his crew (he has succeded, hasn't he ?).

Since we haven't observed supernatural interventions, we can't even say whether a particular is plausible or not (except by heavy anthropomorphizing ....)

I have argued elsewhere that there cannot be evidence for a specific supernatural event, since the connection between our perceptions and the actual events depends crucially on naturalism.

Regards,
HRG.

happyboy · 03-24-2003, 03:40 AM

7thangel, if you can prove to me, under laboratory conditions, that your Deity exists, then i'll gladly pay you a handsome chunk of cash and build you the church of your choice.

i'll be waiting for the evidence.

happyboy, secure in the knowledge he won't be losing any money or building any churches

BioBeing · 03-24-2003, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 7thangel
The Bible is intentionally written to be misunderstood by the lost. You have misunderstandood the bible, and then use it against me. The story you quoted is actually supporting my post. It will be useless for you to have proof of God's existence if you are ignorant of the godhead.

So the lost (who are presumably in the most need of the bible) are deliberately obfuscated??? You cannot read the Bible unless you believe it. And you can only believe it if. . . you read it??? (After all, Christians are constatntly telling atheists to "read the Bible").

Hawkingfan · 03-24-2003, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 7thangel
The GRAVITY and the MIND are invisible things. And you cannot just use any word to describe of their concepts, same as of God. GRAVITY and MIND are not IPUs.

There is testable and repeatable evidence to prove the existence of gravity. Mathematics and observation can support its existence and behavior. The mind is nothing but a word used to label an abstract idea, just like the word "god". You can't compare it to gravity.

Wyz_sub10 · 03-24-2003, 08:06 AM

7thangel, can you please reconcile these two statements, or explain why reconciliation is not necessary:

Quote:

I just want to clarify that God wants us to be convinced intellectually and emotionally.

and

Quote:

The Bible is intentionally written to be misunderstood by the lost.

03-23-2003, 09:28 PM	#21
Godot Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Calgary Posts: 1,335	Re: Re: To all Atheists:About making challenge. To be fair, I already know that you can not actually do this, because that request contains a blatant logical fallacy. There is no way for you to prove that she doesn't exist, but despite this you still don't seem to be in a hurry to worship. Oddly enough, this is the entire point. So let me get this straight.... because I cannot commit a logical fallacy in disproving the existence of an IPU, I am obligated to worship and believe in one? Is it then a logical corollary to draw form this statement of yours that all those that believe in some higher form of benevolent dictator are incapable of rational, logical thought processes?

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03-23-2003, 09:40 PM	#23
BioBeing Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 6,004	Angrillori - my ribeyes are waiting on the gasoline and match fire. I love that post in both threads!

03-23-2003, 10:24 PM	#24
7thangel Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Queens Village, NY Posts: 613	ORAC said: Maybe you don't understand the Invisible Pink Unicorn, or you'ld realise that God is an IPU. (I think you're most of the way there - you've already acknowledged that your God, just like Krishna, Kali, and the IPU are invisible non-tangible beings.) Still, if you're right, feel free to post your proof that the IPU does not exist. If you can't prove that she is made up, then you will be obliged to worship Her because your lack of proof is itself proof of Her existance. I do not promote the IPU concept. Those who debate about this is too foolish in my opinion. The GRAVITY and the MIND are invisible things. And you cannot just use any word to describe of their concepts, same as of God. GRAVITY and MIND are not IPUs. ORAC said:To be fair, I already know that you can not actually do this, because that request contains a blatant logical fallacy. There is no way for you to prove that she doesn't exist, but despite this you still don't seem to be in a hurry to worship. Oddly enough, this is the entire point. You still expect us to worship your IPU, though. Sorry, you have mistaken me.

03-24-2003, 03:40 AM	#27
happyboy Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on the border between here and there, WV Posts: 373	7thangel, if you can prove to me, under laboratory conditions, that your Deity exists, then i'll gladly pay you a handsome chunk of cash and build you the church of your choice. i'll be waiting for the evidence. happyboy, secure in the knowledge he won't be losing any money or building any churches

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