Amos

Hey Strawberry, how are you? Job would be boring and you people are much more interesting.

No, sorry, I am not a researcher.

Sabine Grant

Hi Bree.. Any christian doctrine I am aware of describes satan as an angel. Not a god. Therefor, he does not equal the power of any god. Maybe other christians have more to add on that matter. As describes in Job, satan has to be allowed by God to affect Job's conditions. At least that is how anything I have ever heard taught on that book describes the interaction between god and satan.

Amos

How about when Jesus said to Peter "get thee behind me satan."

Satan is our faculty of reason which is full of [lesser] gods and they come across to us like angels. The only reason why they are lesser gods is because they are not tied down into the greater whole (after they go through the winnowing fan to separate the wheat from the chaff).

Bree

The Bible never says that Satan is an Angel; it merely says that he is a "Son of God" - the term is ambiguous.

Check out Job 1:6-7:

Quote:

One day the Sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and the satan also came among them. The Lord said to the satan, "where have you come from?" The satan answered the Lord, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it."

The Hebrew word Ha'Satan ('the satan' or 'the accuser') and the last line ("From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it") are directly related because of wordplay between the name Ha'Satan and the action. So this passage doesn't necessarily mean that Satan was walking on the earth - we don't get it because we don't read Hebrew or understand it in context.

While we're in the Old Testament, go to Numbers 22 and find the story of Balaam and his ass (I know, ha ha). God sends down the "Angel of the Lord" to stop Balaam from disobeying his prophecy. The "Angel of the Lord," prepared to strike down Balaam if he disobeys, is in the literal translation also Ha'Satan. This is another example of God and Satan working as a tag-team.

While we're on the subject of "What the hell is Satan, anyway?" look at the Garden of Eden story in Genesis. The Bible never ONCE says that the snake/serpent that tempts Eve is the Devil/Satan. The snake is just that, an animal (see Genesis 3:1, 14):

Quote:

Now the serpent was more crafty than any wild animal that the Lord God had made...The Lord God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you among all animals and among all wild creatures."

The concept of the Devil (which is different than Ha'Satan) doesn't appear in the Bible until the New Testament, which had a lot to do with the whole Roman influence of dualism. We're basically talking about two different entities (if they could even be called entities).

Thanks to Jekyll for her Biblical knowledge .

Jekyll

In response to Satan being a "fallen angel," as it were, may I object. Catholics are quoting straight Milton, a little Dante, and a whole bunch of Victorian Romanticism (which was a reaction, as we know, against the English Enlightenment). Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Satan sought power, rejected God, had a fight with his "leigon" (which is, by the by, a reference to the Roman power structure every time it is mentioned in the NT), and was damned into hell. Nowhere. This is Christian dogma, this is Christian mythology. You must read your text.

Curiously enough, what everyone is drawing on is somewhat/sort of the original draw for the Hebraic texts - Ugaritic (Mesopotamian) myths. In this context, Satan is a demi-god, a psuedo-challenger to God that, through challenging God, reaffirms his (God's) power. Other than that, he is a demi-god with reasonable powers, all of which powers a reaffirmed, given by, and directed (to a point) by God. Yes, there were a few usurpations in these old myths. The "satan" figure won out of few times. But there were no hard feelings and, I believe if you read your OT close enough, there are no hard feelings there, either.

Job is a book that criticizes the wisdom traditions of ancient Israel - it is about the nature of suffering. The conclusion of the author is that God causes all things to be - even suffering. Please do see Job 42:7, when God says God is saying, Job, I am pissed at your three friends because they said that suffering was your fault or some evil force of the universe, but I rule all things, and therefore I am the cause of all suffering. God holds the reigns. Period.

There are a lot of things that helped to form the Christian idea of Satan, and I'm afriad that most of those things are fairly modern. I'm sorry to those who subscribe otherwise, but it's true - your version of cosmic evil is not the same as Jesus' was, nor the same as the writers of either the Hebrew Bible or the New Testament. This is a huge subject - worthy of a treatise, and not worth going in to. The story of Satan being rejected is a parable for obedience, nothing more.

Besides, to those who worry that the "saved" can rebel and thusly be damned, wouldn't it be fair to warrent that the "eternally damned" could also be saved? A nice loophole, admittedly. I will have to look into that.

Sabine Grant

Hi again Bree : The verse you quoted in Numbers 22:22 does define from the Aramaic ( not hebrew) the angel of the Lord... still commanded by God. So it still reveals a leader leading an angel. I am not sure what your point is.... it appears from your first post that you did not aknowledge that christian doctrines accept that satan is an angel not a god. Yet you state here that he is an angel.

Now to go back to Genesis . Chapter 3 verses 4 and 5 : this " animal" presumably is able to speak and has been created as the " shrewdest of all creatures" ( verse1). Not only does this "animal" speak but he is also able to present Eve with the notion that if she were to eat the fruit, she would be equal to God( verse5). It seems to me that this animal had an agenda .... I can see how christian doctrines have identified the serpent as the instigator of " being equal to God".

Now Bree as an atheist if you wish to think that satan and God have equal power.... what can I say? as a christian I distinguish evil from good and consider that good will prevail. I guess that is what gives me hope in humanity. Allows me to believe that human beings can change and become better versions of themselves. So I do believe that evil and good do not have equal power on mankind. Evil is only allowed.... good resides and prevails as human beings accept to grow.

Amos

These same Catholics hold that the English Enlightenment was just some more protestant rubbish.

Rousseau_CHN

Today, the Dutch Embassy opened the Anne Frank Musuem in our part of the world.

What caught my attention is what she said in her diary: "Despite everything I believe men in their hearts are good."

It just got me thinking about satan being pure evil. For one moment I will suspend disbelief. Satan was once in God's favor, is there no chance for him to repent? He was once good after all.

God, can any Christian say the same thing : "Despite everything I believe that Satan in his heart is good."

Now back to disbelief:

ah crap...holy crap.

Amos

You seem to forget about the only one sin that can never be forgiven. It is compared with virginity because we can only be a virgin once and is called spiritual fornication because our spiritual intergity (spiritual virginity) can also be fornicated.

braces_for_impact

Satan is god's angel, nowhere does it say he was fallen, nowhere does it say he was the tempter in the garden of Eden.

Satan is an adversary of man, created by god to tempt man and carry out god's will. This was later changed when the church needed a boogey man to scare people into believing.

Isaiah is pointed to by those wanting to believe Satan is a fallen angel, but when read correctly, it is quite easy to se that the passage is referring to Nebechanezzar, a Babylonian king who thought he was better than god.

This is the only verse in the bible that mentions Lucifer. Although most Christians consider Lucifer to be Satan (the devil), there is little biblical justification for doing so. In this verse "Lucifer" refers to the king of Babylon (Nebuchadrezzar?) and Lucifer (the light bearer) is also called the "son of the morning" or morning star. The only other person that is referred to in that way is Jesus (Rev.22:16).

Isaiah: 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

14:13
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14:14
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

14:15
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

14:16
They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the MAN that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;