lpetrich

It claims that the "existing authorities" had been set up by the Biblical God -- which was a remarkable position for someone who had lived under the authority of a government that had worshipped pagan gods.

Does anyone else here find that rather odd?

Interestingly, Romans 13 makes the US Government illegitimate -- the US Constitution credits "we, the people" instead of God as the cause of its existence.

-DM-

Much of what Paul [allegedly] wrote can be considered "rather odd."

Except that "... there is no power but of God; ...." [RO 13:1]

--Don--

hezekiah jones

Congratulations! You have just made it under the wire, and qualify for, "Understatement Of The Year."

lpetrich

Donald Morgan, you must have been using the King James translation; here's a big collection of translations. But first, the US Constitution's Preamble:

WE, THE PEOPLE, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and ensure the blessings of liberty, to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Now, Romans 13:1 in the original Greek (ASCII transcription):

Pasa psukhee exousiais huperekhousais hupotassesthoo. Ou gar estin exousia ei mee hupo Theou, ai de housai hupo Theou tetagmenai eisin.

The translations:

New International Version (NIV)

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

New Living Translation (NLT)

Obey the government, for God is the one who put it there. All governments have been placed in power by God.

King James Version (KJV)

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

New King James Version (NKJV)

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

Revised Standard Version (RSV)

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but from God; the powers that be are ordained by God.

NIV formatted (NIV-IBS)

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)

Every person must obey the rulers over him. Every ruler has his power from God. And the rulers are put there by God.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Let every soul to the higher authorities be subject, for there is no authority except from God, and the authorities existing are appointed by God,

Darby Translation (DARBY)

Let every soul be subject to the authorities that are above [him]. For there is no authority except from God; and those that exist are set up by God.

NET Bible ("New English Translation")

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God's appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God

Sources:

<a href="http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~fisher/cgi-bin/gnt?id=0613" target="_blank">http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~fisher/cgi-bin/gnt?id=0613</a>

eta = ee, omega = oo, upsilon = u, chi = kh

<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?interface=x&language=english" target="_blank">http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?interface=x&language=english</a>

(I typed in Romans 13:1 and selected everything)

<a href="http://www.bible.org" target="_blank">http://www.bible.org</a> / <a href="http://www.netbible.com" target="_blank">http://www.netbible.com</a>

davidH

God establishes it - ie brings it about.
People have to implement it for it to work.

lpetrich

Reread Romans 13:1 -- it essentially states that Mr. G had personally supervised the founding of every government that has ever existed.

By contrast, there is zero mention of any deity in the Constitution; it's authors claim to have produced the US Government entirely on their own initiative, without awaiting marching orders delivered in a voice from the sky -- and certainly without hearing a voice coming from the sky dictating the Constitution to them.

lpetrich

Donald Morgan:
Much of what Paul [allegedly] wrote can be considered "rather odd."

hezekiahjones:
Congratulations! You have just made it under the wire, and qualify for, "Understatement Of The Year."

LP:
Cute thought. However, I'm not very familiar with Paul's writings; I had last read the New Testament long ago, and Paul's writings I had found difficult to follow. But Romans 13 had stuck out as something really odd.

-DM-

[quote]Originally posted by lpetrich:I have more than two dozen translations at hand. I use them all. But I don't necessarily quote them all -- especially when they all say pretty much the same thing (as they do in this case).

What the Preamble to the Constitution states would not change the truth of what Paul allegedly said (if what he said were, in fact, true, of course) even though it came about after the fact of Romans.

This reminds me of what some ministers who know some Koine Greek like to do in their sermons. It impresses the members of the congregation, perhaps, but it is all Greek to them.

Re: translations, here are yours (rearranged in alphabetical order so that I could keep track of them better) with a few more from my collection thrown in:

---------

ASV: ... there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God

DARBY: ... there is no authority except from God; and those that exist are set up by God.

GWT: No government would exist if it hadn't been established by God. The governments which exist have been put in place by God.

ISV: ... no authority exists except by God’s permission.

KJV: ... there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

KJ21: ... there is no power but from God; the powers that be are ordained by God.

NASB: ... there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

NCV: No one rules unless God has given him the power to rule, and no one rules now without that power from God.

NET: ... there is no authority except by God's appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God.

NIV: ... authorities that exist have been established by God.

NIV-IBS: ... there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

NKJV: ... there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

NLT: ... all governments have been placed in power by God.

RSV: ... there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

WE: Every ruler has his power from God. And the rulers are put there by God.

YLT: ... there is no authority except from God, and the authorities existing are appointed by God,

---------

Here is what "The Disciples Study Bible" has to say about that passage:

--Don--

[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: Donald Morgan ]</p>

lpetrich

I had quoted the original Greek version just in case someone knows NT Greek. My knowledge of Greek is very limited, but it once came in handy when checking on whether Matthew 19:12 really refers to eunuchs.

And the "The Disciples Study Bible" apologetic quoted is yet another "hidden God" apologetic -- yet another apologetic that implies that the Biblical God likes to hide and act like some unnecessary hypothesis.

Only in this case, we have some people who explicitly state that they had founded a government purely from their own initiative; a supposed Ruler of the Universe who isn't bothered by this plagiaristic usurpation of credit is a strange being indeed.

And the same hidden-God problem applies to all those governments that claim authority from pagan deities, such as the Roman Empire's, from heresies like Islam, and from belief systems like Marxism. Especially governments that consider Christianity a false religion to be suppressed, like the Roman Empire's, some Islamic ones, and Marxist ones.

To me, a simpler hypothesis is that the Romans 13 hypothesis of government is grossly falsified.

CX

What Greek New Testament are you using? It looks like Westcott-Hort. Is it Nestle&Aland 27? It definitely isn't Textus Receptus or 1991 Byzantine. Also do you read Koine Greek or are you just offering it here for effect? I'm not being contentious, I'm just curious since so few people seem to study NT Greek. Lastly why do you use the ASCII transliteration scheme? Because it's easier? I try to use the B-Greek scheme myself.