Freethought & Rationalism Archive

crazyfingers · 04-08-2002, 05:17 PM

This was in my other paper today.

Here is the link but it will be changed by tomorrow: <a href="http://ledger.southofboston.com/display/inn_opinion/opin03.txt" target="_blank">Patriot Ledger</a>

Quote:

OPINION

READER'S VIEW: Church and state

By xxx xxx, Marshfield

Tolerance... Isn't it great? Sure it is. If you're gay... especially if you're gay. Or if you are a Muslim, don't want to step on any toes there. Or if you practice the holiday... Kwansa, whatever that is.

But be of the belief that this once great country was based on Christianity, you can forget it. The tolerance stops here. God? Pull Him and His commandments out of our government and out of our schools. Jesus? On the lawn of a town building? Get Him out of here. We only want You around when our world is falling down around us. And then only for a little while.

Tolerance is sure a one-way street, and it seems to be a dead end.

I know, I know, separation of church and state. Someone had to do some deep digging and some tight twisting to get that phrase out of our Constitution. Must be referring to the First Amendment where it states ‘‘Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.'' How did they get separation of church and state from that?

Copyright 2002 The Patriot Ledger
Transmitted April 8, 2002

Here is my reply which I hope to send tonight or tomorrow.

Quote:

In her letter to the Editor, “Church and state”, xxx xxx notes that the specific phrase “Separation of church and state” does not appear in the constitution and implies that her particular Christian point of view should be supported by the government.

She is correct that the specific phrase is not part of the 1st Amendment to the Constitution. It was actually coined by Thomas Jefferson and is used in his famous 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists where he says “I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.“

The US Supreme court has stated many times that Jefferson’s letter authoritatively describes what the Founding Fathers meant when they wrote the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution. (See for example Reynolds v. U.S 1879 or Everson v. Board of Education 1947)

The wisdom of the separation between church and state is best understood in relation to the Golden Rule. You would not like to see someone else use the power of government to force their religious point of view on you. So please don’t try to use the power of government to force your religious views on others.

I kinda like that Golden Rule twist.. What do you think?

[ April 08, 2002: Message edited by: crazyfingers ]</p>

hezekiah jones · 04-08-2002, 05:39 PM

I like it.

I'm saddened at xxx xxx's view of the U.S. as a "once great country." I think it's still a great country, and the establishment clause is one of the reasons why.

crazyfingers · 04-08-2002, 07:05 PM

Thanks Hez

I also posted this on the <a href="http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=000213" target="_blank">BaptistBoard</a> and have had at least one positive response from a Baptist.

It wasn't the response I was expecting. It's been a very long time (High School) since I've read any John Locke.

The Resistance · 04-08-2002, 10:01 PM

"‘‘Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.'' How did they get separation of church and state from that?"

Uh, I think it's kind of obvious how we get seperation of church and state from that. What an idiot!

Oresta · 04-09-2002, 04:32 AM

It's a fine response to a disjointed, ill-informed rant. I would suggest you might point out to this bigoted dingbat that Jefferson's letter was in response to Danbury Baptists' concerns that they were required to pay church taxes on a religion that was not theirs - the consequence of a state-established church.

Brian63 · 04-09-2002, 05:21 AM

I've always thought the most effective rebuttal to claims like these is to point out all the words and concepts that are also not listed in the Constitution, but that we use anyways in our political arenas, such as "interstate commerce" and a whole bunch of others that I can't remember.

Also, there is the list of Christian concepts that are to be found nowhere in the Bible, but are used anyway. Likewise, I can't remember a list of them off the top of my head, even though I've heard them a few times before.

Brian

MortalWombat · 04-09-2002, 05:37 AM

From <a href="http://www.ifas.org/fw/9601/legal.html" target="_blank">this site</a>, you can find this:

Quote:

In Reynolds v. United States (1878), the Supreme Court stated, "In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between church and state.'" This was further emphasized in Everson v. Board of Education (1947), as expressed in the opinion for
the majority written by Associate Justice Hugo Black. He wrote, "The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach."

voltaire321 · 04-09-2002, 09:05 AM

You go!

Ok, ok. The real reson I posted was to say that I used to deliver the Patriot Ledger as a kid, and reading your post brought back memories.

pug846 · 04-09-2002, 10:14 PM

With a name like xxx xxx, can you really believe this guy is playing with a full deck?

scombrid · 04-10-2002, 07:46 AM

Nice reply Crazyfingers. It's concise and directly contradicts her primary assertion, "How did they get separation of church and state from that?", with direct evidence as to the intent of the founding fathers. Excellent. I like the golden rule twist. How could they argue that point?

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04-08-2002, 05:39 PM	#2
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	I like it. I'm saddened at xxx xxx's view of the U.S. as a "once great country." I think it's still a great country, and the establishment clause is one of the reasons why.

04-08-2002, 07:05 PM	#3
crazyfingers Contributor Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 13,699	Thanks Hez I also posted this on the <a href="http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=000213" target="_blank">BaptistBoard</a> and have had at least one positive response from a Baptist. It wasn't the response I was expecting. It's been a very long time (High School) since I've read any John Locke.

04-08-2002, 10:01 PM	#4
The Resistance Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 571	"‘‘Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.'' How did they get separation of church and state from that?" Uh, I think it's kind of obvious how we get seperation of church and state from that. What an idiot!

04-09-2002, 04:32 AM	#5
Oresta Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 1,107	It's a fine response to a disjointed, ill-informed rant. I would suggest you might point out to this bigoted dingbat that Jefferson's letter was in response to Danbury Baptists' concerns that they were required to pay church taxes on a religion that was not theirs - the consequence of a state-established church.

04-09-2002, 05:21 AM	#6
Brian63 Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: My own little fantasy world Posts: 8,911	I've always thought the most effective rebuttal to claims like these is to point out all the words and concepts that are also not listed in the Constitution, but that we use anyways in our political arenas, such as "interstate commerce" and a whole bunch of others that I can't remember. Also, there is the list of Christian concepts that are to be found nowhere in the Bible, but are used anyway. Likewise, I can't remember a list of them off the top of my head, even though I've heard them a few times before. Brian

04-09-2002, 09:05 AM	#8
voltaire321 Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 423	You go! Ok, ok. The real reson I posted was to say that I used to deliver the Patriot Ledger as a kid, and reading your post brought back memories.

04-09-2002, 10:14 PM	#9
pug846 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Somewhere Posts: 1,587	With a name like xxx xxx, can you really believe this guy is playing with a full deck?

04-10-2002, 07:46 AM	#10
scombrid Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Central Florida Posts: 2,759	Nice reply Crazyfingers. It's concise and directly contradicts her primary assertion, "How did they get separation of church and state from that?", with direct evidence as to the intent of the founding fathers. Excellent. I like the golden rule twist. How could they argue that point?

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