Iasion

Greetings all,

Here is a clue about Gospel dating which turned up recently - from Aristides' Apology Ch.2, c. 125CE :

Here, he refers to "The Gospel", which may be "read", but which has only been preached for a "SHORT TIME".

I think this is a useful and well-dated clue to the Gospel datings - this seems clearly to show that the Gospel(s) existed as writing, without Evangelists names, and was RECENT in the 120s.

This would probably argue for Gospels written sometime around 110-120CE

Quentin David Jones

Alexis Comnenus

But Iasion, it says 'a short time was preached', not 'has been being preached for a short time'. The passage might still mean as you suggest, but might mean the Gospel was preached for a short time before being written down - quite the reverse of your idea. Besides, how do you know Aristides knows what he is talking about (and that Papias at the same time, did not), how do you know he is referring to the four canonicals and not the many other gospels thought to exist at this time?

It is very thin evidence to late date the Gospels.

Regards

Alex

Vorkosigan

The way it reads in English, it sounds like Aristides is referring to the "short time" in the Christian legend in which Jesus had a ministry.

Michael

Iasion

Greetings Alex, Michael

well, maybe, but I doubt it - thats not the natural reading.

We don't know at all, and there is no documentary evidence the 'four' existed at that time, and there are very FEW other gospels thought to exist in 124CE. Thats the whole point - Aristides is the very FIRST to refer clearly to a written 'gospel' in any way - the external evidence does not suggest the four even existed at this time.


Not sure what you mean by this - Aristides' comments are less specific than Papias - it fits.


Let me recap, perhaps I was a bit unclear - I do NOT mean that Aristides is referring EXACTLY to the four Gospels - not at all.


But, note he says
not sure of the Greek

which clearly means the term 'Gospel' is a title - its is what the writings are called - I think this is most important - it suggests a document, or group or class of documents, which is called 'the gospel'.

This is *not* the same as the earlier typical Pauline usage - 'good news' in an informal sense.

Nor is it a clear reference to 1 or four canonical Gospels.

But,
I think he is clearly saying :
* there is a writing(s) which is specifically called 'the gospel'
* it has only been preached a short time
* it tells the story of Jesus
* it can be read
* it is powerful


This quite reasonably could be taken to mean a early form of a written Gospel - a sayings document perhaps, or a proto-Gospel.

This fits the over-all picture fairly well -
<110CE - Gospels unknown & uncited
c.130CE - Papias mentions sayings writings
c.142CE - Marcion's proto-Gospel
c.150CE - memoirs become known - Justin
c.172CE - Gospels NUMBERED as 4 - diatessaron
c.180CE - Gospels finally NAMED

I think this could very well be useful evidence for the formation of the first written Gospels - a witness who seems to be directly dating a
proto-Gospel writing of some sort to being produced just before 124CE.

Quentin David Jones

P.S.
Michael - I can't see how the 'short time' can be made to refer to any ministry - he explicitly lists the things Jesus does and does not include preaching a short time. The short time naturally refers to the Gospel preaching.

Boro Nut

Jesus had a ministry? Which part of the government? What with his carpentry business, meals on wheels, locum doctoring, public speaking engagements, weddings and bar mitzvahs I'm surprised he could fit it in.

Boro Nut