wardy

The Bible says God is love, just, and good but the place that He created is filled with suffering and pain. Some people have. Some people have nothing. The question is: Can this God exist???

The Bible clearly teaches that God is love, but does it teach that God loves man above all else that exists??? It is clearly evident from the Bible that God is pursuing man and that man is up there on the list of what gets His attention, but is His love for man at the very top of His list of priorities and values???

What must God value above all else in order to be God???

I would say that He would have to value whatever it is that exists that has the most value. If He does not value what is most valuable, then He is making an easy mistake and His value system is not worth paying attention too.

If God is the sole creature of the universe, all wise, and all powerful. He would be the one to determine the value of everything we could possibly fathom because He designed it. He would be the one to ascribe it's worth. But the value of whatever God could create would pale in comparison to the value that God within Himself just for being God. If He created something more valuable than Himself, then whatever He created would then be God because it's of greater worth. In other words. God must value God above all else.

The question then is: Does God, the God of the Bible value Himself above all else including His love for man???


Exo. 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me.
Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.
1 John 2:12 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.

If you look at the order in the Commandments given in Exodus 20:3-17. Notice the detail and priority given to the first one's in verses 3-11. then notice the detail and attention given to 12-17.

I'm not saying at all that the God of the Bible does not love man. It's obvious that He loves man very very much. He just has priorities of what He values.

If a God exists, and He doesn't value His name above all else, could He possibly expect others to value Him???

If any god that could exist tolerates worship of other gods, is that god worth chasing after???


What about the suffering and unfairness in the world???

A person that believes that the God of the Bible cannot exist because a loving God wouldn't allow those bad things to happen most likely:
1. assumes God loves man more than He loves Himself and the glorification of His name. (i have been guilty of this one)
2. has a hard time reconciling God's sacrifice on the cross.
3. has a hard time with salvation being free. It costs man nothing because it cost God everything.
4. describes their argument as God being not fair.

When most people argue that God is not love, their words describe God's unfairness. God claims to be just, good, and loving, but has He ever claimed to be fair??? What's the difference between justice and fairness???

Justice is judging all mankind according to the same standard and impartially. Fairness is reserving the right to do with what is yours. The Bible claims God is just. It doesn't claim that He is fair. In fact, there is even a story about it that i believe would be God's defense of the entire argument of this topic in Matthew 20:1-16.

In the parable a landowner hires workers in the morning to work in His vineyard for a set price that they all agree on until the end of the day. Later on that day the landowner hires more workers for the exact same price to work until the end of the day. Later in the evening the landowner even hired a few more workers until the end of the day for the same price. When the people were paid at the end of the day, the workers that began early in the morning grumbled at the landowner saying, "These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day."

the landowner response is:
"Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for that price? 'Take what is yours and go your way, but i wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 'Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?"

I belive if someone wanted to attempt to put God on trial and accuse Him for being unloving, His answer would be similar to the following?

1. "Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge? "Now gird up your loins like a man, And I will ask you, and you instruct Me! "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding." Job 38:2-4
2. And by the way, I sent my only Son to die for you on a cross.

I would say that the most unfair thing that exists on the universe is man's salvation.

2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf.

Philosoft

Well, I can't tell what your argument is, but I do have one comment. Some people, Christians especially, like to repeat the platitude, "God is love" as if it was common knowledge that everyone within earshot understands what it means. Well, I don't understand what it means. As far as I know, 'love' is an emotion or collection of emotions and 'God' is an alleged being. Since, to my knowledge, emotions are not beings, God cannot be love. And, since humans are capable of love, by the above logic we are also capable of God. Clearly sophistry. I suppose it could be a metaphor, or a not-so-clever way of describing one of God's "infinite" qualities, whatever that means. Am I on the right track, wardy?

Thomas Metcalf

wardy:

I don't see what God's judgment has to do with the fact that there's a lot of apparently gratuitous suffering in the world, and probably, some of it is actually gratuitous. Gratuitous suffering in inconsistent with the God of evangelical Christianity, so God probably does not exist.

xeren

<strong> Ummm, you just contradicted yourself there wardy.

Don't expect many replies from people around here.
This may sound insulting, but if someone doesn't know what your point is, they can't really have a discussion with you.

-xeren

P.S. but you will get a lot of people picking at inconsistencies in your post

[ November 27, 2002: Message edited by: xeren ]</p>

Vorkosigan

He would be the one to determine the value of everything we could possibly fathom because He designed it. He would be the one to ascribe it's worth.

Hogwash. The user, not the creator, determines the value of something.

Biff the unclean

The only thing that the bible makes clear is that God is a character who exists solely between it's covers.
To argue if 'God value's Himself above all else including His love for man' or not, is on a level of arguing if red kryptonite or green kryptonite is worse for Superman.

The real world does not in any way, shape, or form reflect the presence of a God of any sort or Superman.
You cannot claim that God is loving or unloving because you cannot produce a God. Since you cannot produce a God you have no way of knowing what the God is (ie; claiming he is love) or what his likes and dislikes are.

I would say that the most unfair thing that exists on the universe is man's salvation.
That is on a level with saying that's it's unfair that Lex Luthor always escapes to plot his nefarious schemes.
You don't need to be saved. There was no Fall of man, the Midrash says so.

You have a two-thousand-year old novel about a super hero, and that's all you have. The plot points (damnation, salvation, dropping atomic bombs on the San Andreas fault so that California will sink) are only part of a story. A poorly written story at that.

It isn't real, so stop worrying. You don't need saving, you're fine. You aren't hanging by a helicopter's seat belt from the top of the Daily Planet building, and you aren't going to fall in the clutches of horned monsters from the fiery center of the Earth. Calm down, there's nothing to be saved from. You are already safe, you don't need a super hero.

Now gird up your loins like a man and don't call me Chief!!!

Jack the Bodiless

Um, no.

1. According to Christian theologians, God is omnibenevolent: he loves everybody "to the max", including us. He has an infinite amount of love to spread around, nobody goes short.

2. According to Christianity, God sacrificed very little on the cross. Jesus was briefly dead, but was then raised. Nothing was lost.

3. Salvation costs God nothing. He's supposed to be omnipotent.

4. I describe my argument as God not existing.

Jobar

I like that, chief.

Theli

It seems to me that wardy is more keen to attack the defender of the argument than engaging the argument itself.
I don't have my fallacy glossary open, but I'm sure there's a name for that.

An obvious error here, does this mean that god enjoys human suffering and sees this as entertainment, or does it mean that god simple doesn't have time to protect us, being to busy in stroking his own ego?

I guess we'll never know.
<img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

Keith Russell

Greetings:

I like the idea of arguing about 'God's' likes, dislikes, and character is similar to arguing the chemical properties of Kryptonite.

I guess what we're doing here, on this forum, is trying to show people who 'believe' the ways in which these two discussions are similar.

Keith.