Primordial Groove

Howdy.

I've been talking to an aquaintance about life, evolution, etc.

One of the things he says is that the reason humans can not be cloned is because of the lack of a soul. I say it's due to bad gene information.

Is there any case of an attempted human clone? I cannot think of any such case but i could be wrong. He says that there have been attempts to clone humans but has not cited any resources on the subject.
I asked him about the cloning of animals which have succeeded for a period of time. His reaction was that only humans have souls.

I asked for proof of a soul which he responded with, 'have you ever seen a billion dollars?' I answered no, but I can at an financial institution and there are many billion dollar investments as proof of its existence.'
He asked if I have ever seen a breath of air. Well, no, but I can measure it with various equipment, etc. At this point, he went into a red herring..which seemed to happen alot.

I like the guy but damn; you should have heard him. His phrase was 'most scientists over the world do not believe in evolution, it's just here in the states that people believe.

ps418

About one in every 250 births results in natural clones. If your friend thinks that ensoulment happens at the "moment" of conception, then he/she has some rethinking to do. For instance, does the soul split in two, or does one blastocyst keep the original soul while heaven sends down another soul for the other blastocyst?

The pity is that once human cloning happens -- and I see no reason to think that it won't-- this type of logic would imply that the clone is somehow less of a person, maybe even an automaton.

Patrick

yguy

If you refer to identical siblings, calling them clones is one hell of a stretch. I doubt like hell you can justify it on a scientific basis.

If it doesn't have a soul, then an automaton is certainly the most it will ever be.

ps418

That just shows how much (or little) you know about cloning. Identical twins are clones in precisely the same sense that artificially-created clones are clones -- they posses identical DNA. You may be using the word clone in a different way then do biologists, but by that definition --the one I'm using-- what I said is no stretch at all, its a simple fact. For instance, if I take a cutting from one plant and use it to grow a new plant, its a clone.

And you know this how? How would you go about determing whether a clone has a soul?

Patrick

Pierre Bezukhov

Haven't the cloned sheep, cows, etc. had a myriad medical problems (arthritis, premature aging)? Wouldn't that make it unethical to attempt any sort of human cloning as the science stand now? How would like to explain to a cloned child that he is going to die young because you were experimenting with the cloning procedure?

ps418

Yes, and that's why virtually everyone agrees with a temporary ban on human reproductive cloning, until and unless it could be done with minimal risk of serious complications.

Patrick

Primordial Groove

And this is the point I was attempting to establish. Human cloning is not impossible but it isnt done due to the medical reasons or the genetic problems that happen. The 'ethics' if you will.

He says that humans have been cloned in the past but doesnt provided examples.

Has there ever been an example of a lab or company cloning a human being in the past? This does not include twins.
Thanks for bringing that up though ps418.

Is there any research to suggest that a cloned human would not live if one was cloned?

ps418

You mean, using currently available knowledge and technology? I highly doubt it could be done, but I cant prove its impossible. But then, as far as we know, no one has tried. I suppose its possible that with many attempts you'd get a successful birth or two, but no one knows that for sure. But then, it couldn't be done with sheep a decade ago, and no one seemed to think this was because sheep has souls, only that the technological barriers had not been overcome.

Patrick

Primordial Groove

Thanks ps418.

I can hear his question coming a mile away:

'if we all evolved from the same organism then why is that we can clone animals but not humans? This proves my point that humans have souls.'

How many attempts were made to clone sheep before the seeming successful cloning of Dolly?

Why can we clone animals but not humans? (not from a moral stand but from a scientific/biological stand?) Is it due to specific cellular differences or is there more to this biological puzzle?

bocajeff

Many attempts were made to clone Dolly. And many of the results were less than desirable. Horrible defects and short life expectancy being the main problems.

We could clone humans just as we cloned Dolly. The process would be similar. The only thing holding that back is the creation of thousands of horribly defective and short lived human "experiments." We, as a society seem to have an ethical issue with that.