Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Quatermass · 12-15-2002, 09:03 PM

I am the lone unbeliever in my house and sometimes the strangeness of Christianity overwhelms me. Rather than cause a fight at home I�m venting here.

Does anybody really believe that the birth stories of Jesus are historical? At church they treat the details like historical facts -- the trip to Bethlehem, angels appearing, the Christmas star, Herod killing the children. I listen to this each year and feel like shouting � do you people really believe this!?!

Is it just me or does it seem that it was a lot more common in the old days for angels to appear to people and give them advice? I can get lost using Yahoo maps, but the Magi follow a star to a particular house! Jesus lives in either Bethlehem or Egypt, depending on what gospel you read. Matthew can pull a prophecy out of ANY OT verse � and if he can�t find a verse that works -- he makes one up! Joseph has two genealogies � and yet was a non-participant in the whole conception story. Mary gets pregnant by the Holy Spirit, has several direct encounters with angels and with others who have also, a king tries to kill her child and instead kills all the baby boys in the town, Magi and shepherds come to worship her child whom she has been told is the son of God � and she is STILL amazed when people tell her the kid is special. Hello?!!

And people actually spend time trying to rationalize this stuff (the Magi were astrologers and were studying constellations; the genealogies are for Mary and Joseph, yada, yada, yada).

Marcus Borg says that most mainstream scholars do not believe the birth stories are historical. So why hasn�t this news reached the average pew sitter? Why, if truth is so important, is there this jumbled up mess of legends and tale tales?
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

abe smith · 12-17-2002, 07:21 AM

Dear Person: just like to reiterate my standard=constant biologist's argument: that if "His" (sic) Mother was a never-impregnated Virgin aka "the Blessed Mother", then her kid, their Lord, has to have been a FEMALE, repeat
FEMALE; because (up to now at least) the only source from which a human zygote >> potential fetus/human-being can GET the MALE Y ("defective") chromosome wh makes a human male a male is from a MALE (Y-chromosome-transmitting)
human biological FATHER. That air-invention, "god",alleged to have been Jesus's "father, doesn't HAVE any chromosomes.
Of course, as a human fiction, "He" doesn't have anything-else either.
This assertion of mine infuriates believers; who of course do not believe (in) biology.

lpetrich · 12-17-2002, 09:06 AM

Others have noticed this also; why are Xian clergypeople reluctant to tell their flocks that those sorts of stories are little better than mythology?

Do they support something like Plato's Royal Lie view of religion?

butswana · 12-17-2002, 09:24 AM

Preachers at the larger churches around here rake in six figure salaries. If I was pulling in that kind of loot, I wouldn't exactly be to quick to let the cat out of the bag either.

Mageth · 12-17-2002, 09:34 AM

In many churches, pastors realize that if they actually present the problems with the Christian stories rather than preaching what the congregation wants to hear, they'll be tossed out by the Board.

I've seen this happen in churches - a minister teaching doctrine too liberal (or too conservative) for at least a segment of the congregation can stir up a hornet's nest.

MrDarwin · 12-17-2002, 09:42 AM

Why do people still have issues with black cats, ladders, and broken mirrors?

I once saw a waitress throw salt over her left shoulder after spilling it.

People carry around the mummified amputated feet from rabbits.

Little children believe in Santa Claus simply because the authority figures in their lives have told them there is a Santa Claus.

Need I say more?

Zadok001 · 12-17-2002, 12:26 PM

(As an aside, it's not bad luck. I broke eight mirrors last week, and I'm fine.

)

Daggah · 12-17-2002, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Does anybody really believe that the birth stories of Jesus are historical? At church they treat the details like historical facts -- the trip to Bethlehem, angels appearing, the Christmas star, Herod killing the children. I listen to this each year and feel like shouting – do you people really believe this!?!

Given that the entire thing is a rip-off of the myth of the birth of the Persian god Mithra, not bloody likely.

NOGO · 12-17-2002, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Abe smith
"His" (sic) Mother was a never-impregnated Virgin aka "the Blessed Mother", then her kid, their Lord, has to have been a FEMALE

The claim is that God impregnated Mary. She was a virgin because her hymen remained intact through the process. Obviously it had to be broken when Jesus was born but that is another story.
What you are talking about is "Parthenogenesis" and in such cases a female is always the final product.

This is my take on the <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=51&t=000805" target="_blank">virgin birth</a>

Mageth · 12-17-2002, 03:52 PM

Given that the entire thing is a rip-off of the myth of the birth of the Persian god Mithra, not bloody likely.

Not to mention <a href="http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/godmen.html" target="_blank">Horus, Krishna</a>, and several others.

12-15-2002, 09:03 PM	#1
Quatermass Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 69	Stranger Than Truth - The Birth Stories I am the lone unbeliever in my house and sometimes the strangeness of Christianity overwhelms me. Rather than cause a fight at home I�m venting here. Does anybody really believe that the birth stories of Jesus are historical? At church they treat the details like historical facts -- the trip to Bethlehem, angels appearing, the Christmas star, Herod killing the children. I listen to this each year and feel like shouting � do you people really believe this!?! Is it just me or does it seem that it was a lot more common in the old days for angels to appear to people and give them advice? I can get lost using Yahoo maps, but the Magi follow a star to a particular house! Jesus lives in either Bethlehem or Egypt, depending on what gospel you read. Matthew can pull a prophecy out of ANY OT verse � and if he can�t find a verse that works -- he makes one up! Joseph has two genealogies � and yet was a non-participant in the whole conception story. Mary gets pregnant by the Holy Spirit, has several direct encounters with angels and with others who have also, a king tries to kill her child and instead kills all the baby boys in the town, Magi and shepherds come to worship her child whom she has been told is the son of God � and she is STILL amazed when people tell her the kid is special. Hello?!! And people actually spend time trying to rationalize this stuff (the Magi were astrologers and were studying constellations; the genealogies are for Mary and Joseph, yada, yada, yada). Marcus Borg says that most mainstream scholars do not believe the birth stories are historical. So why hasn�t this news reached the average pew sitter? Why, if truth is so important, is there this jumbled up mess of legends and tale tales? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

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12-17-2002, 07:21 AM	#2
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	Dear Person: just like to reiterate my standard=constant biologist's argument: that if "His" (sic) Mother was a never-impregnated Virgin aka "the Blessed Mother", then her kid, their Lord, has to have been a FEMALE, repeat FEMALE; because (up to now at least) the only source from which a human zygote >> potential fetus/human-being can GET the MALE Y ("defective") chromosome wh makes a human male a male is from a MALE (Y-chromosome-transmitting) human biological FATHER. That air-invention, "god",alleged to have been Jesus's "father, doesn't HAVE any chromosomes. Of course, as a human fiction, "He" doesn't have anything-else either. This assertion of mine infuriates believers; who of course do not believe (in) biology.

12-17-2002, 09:06 AM	#3
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Others have noticed this also; why are Xian clergypeople reluctant to tell their flocks that those sorts of stories are little better than mythology? Do they support something like Plato's Royal Lie view of religion?

12-17-2002, 09:24 AM	#4
butswana Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 1,804	Preachers at the larger churches around here rake in six figure salaries. If I was pulling in that kind of loot, I wouldn't exactly be to quick to let the cat out of the bag either.

12-17-2002, 09:34 AM	#5
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	In many churches, pastors realize that if they actually present the problems with the Christian stories rather than preaching what the congregation wants to hear, they'll be tossed out by the Board. I've seen this happen in churches - a minister teaching doctrine too liberal (or too conservative) for at least a segment of the congregation can stir up a hornet's nest.

12-17-2002, 09:42 AM	#6
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	Why do people still have issues with black cats, ladders, and broken mirrors? I once saw a waitress throw salt over her left shoulder after spilling it. People carry around the mummified amputated feet from rabbits. Little children believe in Santa Claus simply because the authority figures in their lives have told them there is a Santa Claus. Need I say more?

12-17-2002, 12:26 PM	#7
Zadok001 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Two Steps Ahead Posts: 1,124	(As an aside, it's not bad luck. I broke eight mirrors last week, and I'm fine. )

12-17-2002, 03:52 PM	#10
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Given that the entire thing is a rip-off of the myth of the birth of the Persian god Mithra, not bloody likely. Not to mention <a href="http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/godmen.html" target="_blank">Horus, Krishna</a>, and several others.

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