faustuz

Why would an all knowing master of space and time feel the irrepressible need to be adored by mere insects (relatively speaking), and indeed punish them in the most absolute of terms if they fail in this task? Indeed it makes God seem very human, although rather immaturely so. We expect such behavior from schoolyard bullies, megalomaniac dictators and small children who demand adoration from their beaten dogs. One might think that God would be held to a somewhat higher standard. And yet this is exactly what the Judeo/Christian version of God would have us expect of Him.

I suppose I can understand that primitive peoples facing starvation after seeing their hard earned crops devoured by locusts might see the universe as a cruel game played by a vengeful deity exacting revenge for a perceived slight, say not enough virgins sacrificed last year. I suppose that one can look at the world today and still assume that a megalomaniac God is playing with us like the brat with his abused pet. Perhaps that’s the only kind of God that would fit the facts e.g. the Holocaust, Central Africa, etc., etc., the only other possibility being random chance (which we might expect to be cruel).

I suppose there is no reason why a God might not be that spoiled brat version of God, as much as any other. If God exists then He is God and His nature is His nature and that’s that. I also suppose that if I were to become convinced that such a God exists I would chose to worship Him rather that suffer the imponderable consequences. I would become like Doestoyevsky’s atheist philosopher who dies and suddenly finds himself on the other side, defying his expectations. He is given the option of walking a trillion trillion miles to heaven or sit for eternity in nothingness. He spends a thousand years sitting, out of principle, but then gets up a starts walking. What choice does he really have after all? Yet I find myself unable to believe in such a God, it just seems silly. Personally it’s easier for me to believe that the hammer fell on my head by random chance than that a spoiled brat did it.

Of course, that’s just me.

Ojuice5001

Wow, there are so many faulty assumptions in that post. Why do you think that if theism is true, the following are:

1. Everything bad that happens is the gods' fault?
2. When one god causes suffering, all gods can be blamed for this?
3. That the reason the gods cause suffering is that people don't worship them? (If that were true, all Europeans would be dead around the year 700 CE.)
4. That the world is really so bad that you can look around and see only the work of chance and/or a spoiled brat? That's not what I see.
5. That is is the gods' obligation to get rid of every last social problem?

[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: Jupiter's Terrier ]</p>

Denshuu

Because God's in total control as an omnipotent deity.

He's talking about Christianity. There are no "gods" in this sense.

It needn't be true or false for the Europeans to live past 700 CE, seeing as how this god doesn't exist. But to answer the first question, see the story of Noah's Ark, or Exodus 22:20: "He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed."

Obviously not. You're pagan.
A detached look at reality should bring you to the conclusion that a lot of uncessary evil exists in the world and that a just and loving god (the Judeo-Christian god, not any of yours) wouldn't allow it to occur. An immature god, or no god at all, would allow this to occur.

He mentioned nothing of obligations.

Anyway, nice post faustuz.

gcomeau

I think it was clear that by using "God" he was referring to the Christian deity and not just any nebulous 'gods'. Why are you suddenly painting with such a broad brush as 'theism'?

Keeping the last comment in mind, we're referring to a being who is claimed to be both omnipotent and omniscient. This means he has both knowledge of any 'bad' thing that happens and the ability to prevent it if he so chooses... and yet bad things still happen. Partial responsibility at the very least lies with anyone who has the ability to prevent harm and yet deliberately refrains from doing so.

Again, see first comment. I didn't see any mention of 'gods' in the original post.

Only if we assume the actual existence of this God. I wish people would try to keep in mind that when an athiest refers to God/gods they are speaking of 'the concept in the heads of theists'... not an actual entity. That said, there is plenty of biblical support that God does in fact punish for failure to bow down to him.

That's not what an atheist sees either, we don't believe the 'spoiled brat' even exists in the first place, remember?

If I was granted the ability to do anything at all for a single day... absolutely anything my imagination could conceive of... and I used that opportunity to make myself rich and famous and worshipped by multitudes and completely neglected to do anything whatsoever about war, poverty, disease, ignorance, bigotry, etc... even though it would cost me nothing to do so... what exactly would be your opinion of me?

I know what my opinion would be of such a person.

-Grant

Ojuice5001

I get the impression that faustuz has it in for any gods that may turn out to exist. He implies that the best two alternatives are atheism and a cruel god who approves the Holocaust and mass starvation in Central Africa. So I tried to show that his reasons for feeling this way are flawed. Jupiter and his cohorts do not want these things to happen, but they have not yet taken enough control to stop them. That's a perfectly good alternative to believing that the world is ruled by no god, or one very cruel god.

faustuz

1. Everything bad that happens is the gods' fault?

My tract was primarily aimed at the Judeo/Christian version which holds that God is omnipotent. If God is omnipotent then he is responsible for everything that happens, pretty much by the definition of omnipotent. Are you arguing for a hybrid system in which some things happen according to God’s (or gods’) will, and some things according to natural laws, outside of God’s (or gods’) control? Are you then arguing that all the good things come from God (or gods’) and all the bad things from some other agent? That’s an interesting philosophy that would make you, in my opinion, kind of half atheist half theist. That’s fine, but I’m not in the mood to debate such a position at this time.

2. When one god causes suffering, all gods can be blamed for this?

My tract was aimed at the Judeo/Christian world view, which you will realize when you actually read my post. Last I heard Judaism and Christianity were monotheistic religions so it would seem that this is an invalid point. After reading your profile I realize you to be a polytheist. I suppose under a polytheistic world view some gods would be responsible for some suffering, other for other suffering, and some possibly for none at all.

3. That the reason the gods cause suffering is that people don't worship them? (If that were true, all Europeans would be dead around the year 700 CE.)

What happened around 700CE? Did all Europeans stop worshipping God? My history classes must have skipped over that little episode. In any case, again presupposing that I am discussing the Christian/Judeo viewpoint, the idea is that if you don’t worship God you get to go to hell. Generally hell is described as a place of suffering. So, yes, in the Christian/Judeo tradition God causes suffering to those who decide not to worship Him.

4. That the world is really so bad that you can look around and see only the work of chance and/or a spoiled brat? That's not what I see.

The spoiled brat reference is to the type of being that would cause suffering to one who does not worship Him. I’m not sure how the monotheist gets out of this. My understanding of polytheist world views is that bad things are caused by various gods, as well as good things.

To really answer your question, though, I personally only see the work of chance in accordance with mathematical laws. I don’t actually believe in the brat, but many people apparently do.

5. That is the gods' obligation to get rid of every last social problem?

If I believed in the existence of God (or gods) then I would make no such assumption about the obligation of God (or gods). After all, if God existed then He would be God and He could be any kind of God he wanted to be. He being God, who would I be to question that? I find a God that causes suffering simply because he is not worshipped hard to believe in. The Christian/Judeo God does this by sending people to hell, or at least by denying them Heaven and eternal life.

After reading your profile I can see the source of you attack against my little diatribe. It seems that you are a polytheist and took issue with my reference to the polytheism. I really included this view of polytheism as a counterpoint to my main argument which was, again, directed at the Christian/Judeo world view. I admit to not being very well versed in Roman polytheism. However, it was always my understanding that Roman gods often inflicted suffering on mortals based often on perceived slights or for any other reason. They, after all, are gods and that is their prerogative. Correct me if I’m wrong on this understanding, although know that I’m going to read up on a few Roman myths this evening in an attempt to find examples of this. I think I’ll be successful.

Wyz_sub10

I think it's clear he is referring to the Judeo-Christian concept of god and god's desire to be worshipped, a la First Commandment and "god created man to bring him glory."

He isn't referring to any other mythology involving gods of limited power.

I assume, if referring to Jupiter, one could simply say that Jupiter was vain, or drew his power from worshippers.

That characterization cannot be applied to the J-C god because his is faultless and omnipotent.

Dargo

The fact that god is no where to be found is the strongest argument against an immature god who demands our worship. The ego of such a deity would never allow him to hide from us. He would be standing on a cloud for all to tremble before his greatness. Certainly anyone who denied the existance of such a god would instantly be struck dead.

hinduwoman

The obvious answer is that an omnipotent God do not want our worship, but since his so called priests like to be worshipped themselves they imagine their god is just as immature and egoistic as them.

Darkblade

Well put. LMAO!