Freethought & Rationalism Archive

scigirl · 07-09-2002, 08:14 AM

Hello,

Well I've been avoiding the whole pledge subject since mainly I've been annoyed by the whole thing (this is what we pay our government officials to do--debate two words of an oath?) But as I was driving around this morning, I thought about the Hippocratic oath. This is the oath that doctors take in medical school. You can read about it <a href="http://www.yale.edu/lt/archives/v7n2/v7n2medicalschool.htm" target="_blank">here from Yale</a>.

The original oath has controversies on several levels: It forbids abortion, it forbids doctors to engage in sex (

), and it (horrors) only uses the male pronoun!

For those reasons, much of the Hippocratic oath has been re-written. However, one particular controversy--swearing to Greek gods and goddesses--remains in the oath. It begins like this:

Quote:

I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfill according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:

Now if I was a Christian, the first commandment in the Bible forbids me to say these things. So what am I to do at the ceremony?
1. Don't say the oath - object on religious grounds.
2. Say it, but realize it doesn't mean anything.

So, either way, the oath has less meaning for me. Right off the bat, the ceremony that inducts me into the medical profession has already let me down. If I was a Christian, I think I would much rather say this oath (devised by Yale):

Quote:

Now being admitted to the high calling of the physician, I solemnly pledge to consecrate my life to the care of the sick, the promotion of health, and the service of humanity...

Why? Because the oath actually has meaning for me now. Instead of being distracted and distressed about breaking my religious vows at the same time I'm professing my medical oath, now I can solely concentrate on the medical oath - "I will be a fantastic doctor and here's how."

So Christians who are reading this: When I say the pledge of allegiance, it is much like the Christian above struggling with the H. Oath - either way you slice it, the oath is simply not fair to non-judeo christians. The entire oath, and the reason for saying it, has lost some meaning because I don't believe in God. Just like you don't believe in Apollo. When I say the pledge, it fills my mind with irony - because although the pledge reminds us of the principles which our country was founded, it also breaks those very principles. It's an oxymoron.

Wouldn't it be more fair to keep the Pledge of Allegiance meaningful to all Americans, not just the believers?

scigirl

(The web site above has full texts of both oaths if anyone is interested.)

[ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: scigirl ]</p>

Secular Elation · 07-09-2002, 08:22 AM

Precisely.

capsaicin67 · 07-09-2002, 08:25 AM

Hmmmmm. Yet another angle. Aptly put, makes sense to me.

Rev. Joshua · 07-09-2002, 08:35 AM

Well, yeah, but I'm a Christian who thinks "under God" shouldn't be in the pledge in the first place - so I wasn't hard to convince.

Joshua

P.S. I think the version of the Hippocratic Oath that my wife swore as a veterinarian was slightly different because it recognized the possibility of performint euthanasia.

Dark Jedi · 07-09-2002, 10:40 AM

Scigirl, can I steal this concept, if not your words altogether, for a different debate on the same topic?

tragic_pizza · 07-09-2002, 10:42 AM

Number me with Rev. Joshua.

I'll need to consult a physician or two. This is an interesting question.

scigirl · 07-09-2002, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dark Jedi:
<strong>Scigirl, can I steal this concept, if not your words altogether, for a different debate on the same topic?</strong>

Sure

lpetrich · 07-09-2002, 11:01 PM

There are some rewritten versions of the Oath that omit that swearing by those Hellenic-pagan deities.

I also read the original Oath more carefully, and it only forbids sex with one's patients.

Here's a <a href="http://www.usask.ca/antharch/cnea/DeptTransls/HippOath.html" target="_blank">close-to-literal translation</a> of it.

punta · 07-09-2002, 11:39 PM

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

requests permission to "borrow" idea.

abe smith · 07-10-2002, 05:35 AM

Ummmmm. Essentially, the Hippocratic oath, dear as it is to sentimentalists of various stripes, ISN"T official in establishing any sort of credentials in the practice of medicine; and it seems pretty obvious that if there are any participants who recite it mindlessly as most? participants recite the Pledge, when the chips are down/the rubber hits the road etc, present-day MDs do what they like, Hippocrates or no. Probably if you were to brace a real live MD about this, he (sic) wd either hem & haw, or reassure you piously that he (sic) believes & obeys every word of the Hippocritic Oath, by gawd. Altho(as w/ the Man In The Street's rejection of many provisions of the Constitution(verbatim)) an MD today may not even know what the Oath says. Sorry, this last sentence is ungrammatically-uncomplete.

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07-09-2002, 08:22 AM	#2
Secular Elation Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: California Posts: 6,196	Precisely.

07-09-2002, 08:25 AM	#3
capsaicin67 Contributor Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Gold coast plain, sea, scrubland, mountain range. Posts: 20,955	Hmmmmm. Yet another angle. Aptly put, makes sense to me.

07-09-2002, 08:35 AM	#4
Rev. Joshua Junior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Atlanta Posts: 63	Well, yeah, but I'm a Christian who thinks "under God" shouldn't be in the pledge in the first place - so I wasn't hard to convince. Joshua P.S. I think the version of the Hippocratic Oath that my wife swore as a veterinarian was slightly different because it recognized the possibility of performint euthanasia.

07-09-2002, 10:40 AM	#5
Dark Jedi Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Afghanistan Posts: 4,666	Scigirl, can I steal this concept, if not your words altogether, for a different debate on the same topic?

07-09-2002, 10:42 AM	#6
tragic_pizza Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 108	Number me with Rev. Joshua. I'll need to consult a physician or two. This is an interesting question.

07-09-2002, 11:01 PM	#8
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	There are some rewritten versions of the Oath that omit that swearing by those Hellenic-pagan deities. I also read the original Oath more carefully, and it only forbids sex with one's patients. Here's a <a href="http://www.usask.ca/antharch/cnea/DeptTransls/HippOath.html" target="_blank">close-to-literal translation</a> of it.

07-09-2002, 11:39 PM	#9
punta Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Can-a-duh! Posts: 148	<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> requests permission to "borrow" idea.

07-10-2002, 05:35 AM	#10
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	Ummmmm. Essentially, the Hippocratic oath, dear as it is to sentimentalists of various stripes, ISN"T official in establishing any sort of credentials in the practice of medicine; and it seems pretty obvious that if there are any participants who recite it mindlessly as most? participants recite the Pledge, when the chips are down/the rubber hits the road etc, present-day MDs do what they like, Hippocrates or no. Probably if you were to brace a real live MD about this, he (sic) wd either hem & haw, or reassure you piously that he (sic) believes & obeys every word of the Hippocritic Oath, by gawd. Altho(as w/ the Man In The Street's rejection of many provisions of the Constitution(verbatim)) an MD today may not even know what the Oath says. Sorry, this last sentence is ungrammatically-uncomplete.

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