Windy Willow

I have a question, If Christianity is patterned after the myths of resurrected godmen "mystery religions" (Adonis, Dionysus, Cybele and Attis, Isis and Osiris). Then at what point was Christianity taken literally. How did it make the jump? How could the people of the first and second century that knew about the myths of resurrected godmen "mystery religions" be fooled into believe Christianity literally? Were they forced be "government"? I can see that Christianity was influenced by pagan thought but I don't understand why so many people in the beginning four centuries of the first millennium were tricked. Can some one clear this up?!

Plebe

You might want to consider reading or joining the group of posters at this group and reaching your own conclusions from reading the following articles below.
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JesusMysteries/" target="_blank">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JesusMysteries/</a>

<a href="http://www.atheists.org/church/twelve.html" target="_blank">http://www.atheists.org/church/twelve.html</a>

<a href="http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/maccoby.htm" target="_blank">http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/maccoby.htm</a>

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_wheless/forgery_in_christianity/index.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_wheless/forgery_in_christianity/index.shtml</a>

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/m_m_mangasarian/truth_about_jesus.html" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/m_m_mangasarian/truth_about_jesus.html</a>

<a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~kirby/xtianity/index.html" target="_blank">http://home.earthlink.net/~kirby/xtianity/index.html</a>

Toto

Freke and Gandy think that originally the gospel of Mark was the introductory stage of the mystery religion known as Christianity, but that once the initiate reached a higher level, he learned that the story was more symbolic than real. The full initiate learned that the story was a drama taking place in his own psyche.

However, after the turmoil of the late first and early second centuries, some of the outlying churches lost contact with the higher initiates in Jerusalem, and got stuck at the original first level of literalism.

In addition, the second century "orthodox" church became engaged in a battle with the gnostic "heretics." In order to shore up their authority, they needed a real person who was the historical Jesus, who personally transmitted his authority to certain disciples. This "apostolic succession" myth confirmed that the orthodox were the true heirs. This test of literalism became a fixed doctrine that was eventually enforced by the authrority of the Roman Empire.

As to why people believed it - you can look around you, even in this allegedly skeptical age, and find people believing all sorts of weird things (Michael Shermer wrote the book on it.) Back then, skepticism was even rarer. Believing in a historic Christ was just the price of admission to the Christian Church. It was easier than circumcision, so the Christians had an advantage over the Jews.

Baidarka

Windy Willow
People took the Mystery Religions very seriously so it is only natural for the early Christian Church to be reinterpreted as a mystery religion when it moved from the Jewish world to the Gentile world. One early form of Christian mystery Religion was called Gnosticism (see Elaine Pagles , The Gnostic Gospels). It is important to realize that the Roman world was a melting pot and people were exposed to all kinds of new ideas. Synchronistic (a religion which combines ideas from several other religions) religions were quite popular and very much part of popular culture. Modern Scholarship and archeology is starting to confirm that Judaism is also synchronistic taking elements from Babylonian, Canaanite, Egyptian and other ancient Religions and Legends to create a new Religion. It is important to realize that Religions and Gods are all human inventions. Mostly people believe because they want to. Think about all those people who call those psychic phone lines.
Baidaka

Vorkosigan

Syncretic

Baidarka

Thanks for the correction. I'll keep my dictionary on and try to refer to it more often

CX

&lt;tiresome pedantry&gt;
I think you mean "syncretistic".
&lt;/tiresome pedantry&gt;

Hmmm...perhaps I should read the entire thread before I decide to make a redundant and trivial comment.

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: CX ]</p>

Amos

Hi Windy Willow, my answer to this is easy and is just my pinion.

Ask yourself how it is possible that protestant evangelists can go and convert Catholics to their side and in a matter of days have a whole group of them ablaze with 'the fire of the Holy Spirt' which soon will spread like a wildfire.

This same technique was applied to the pagans in the early days. The difference between these two is that in the early days the movement was among pagans and the charismatic evangelists that started these movements were wolves indeed but of a different color and therefore not wolves in sheeps clothing.

The Catholic Church is and has always been a mystery religion itself but has used this technique to get the message across that they worshipped a living God. They used it first to attract followers in the early church and later it was used to spread the gospel in pagan territories but never among their own flock because it is a OK to be a wolf but it is not OK to be a wolf in your own flock and therefore in sheeps clothing.

Literalism is born out of the above movements because the fire that was started among these people must be fueled by the burning of daily scriptures. The idea behind it is borrowed from the children of Israel because they too needed to renew their faith each day with the consumption of scriptures.

joedad

I would confidently conjecture that all religions have and have had their share of literalists. This would explain the christian variety today and historically. Seeing christianity as an outgrowth or extension of paganism would certainly explain its historical popularity. IOW, no special significance for christianity proper need be invoked. No supposed "break" in the pagan or larger religious continuum need be made culturally or individually.
What Toto said.

And maybe it's worth stating that to a believer or practitioner, and perhaps only because being so requires a large measure of provincialism, is the draw of any one religion best understood. Therefore I see no "trickery" or even deception involved. From outside the religious experience, every religion becomes as unique as every other.

joe

RyanS2

There's no way to really know how many of the mystery religions were literal and how many were more symbolic. For example, when Polybius writes that:

"Since the multitude is ever fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the invisible world; on which account our ancestors seem to me to have acted judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these notions of the gods, and of the infernal regions."

Did he believe in this "infernal region" as being referenced mythical or factual? Or as another example, in "The Ancient Mysteries: A Sourcebook", p. 63:

"Little is known of the actual mysteries of Dionysos, but presumably they were as diverse as the manifestations of the god."

These diverse interpretations, were some literal and were some symbolic? Let's look at another source, Bernard A. Block, Delphi (Phocis, Greece), International Dictionary of Historic Places, 95, pp. 183-186:

"According to mythology, a dramatic change occurred at Delphi around 1000 B.C. with the arrival of the Greek god Apollo. It was believed that the oracle of the earth goddess was guarded by a great serpent known as the python. Legend says that Apollo killed the serpent with an arrow, became the lord of Delphi, and was known thereafter as the Pythian Apollo. Apollo was later joined by his younger brother Dionysus, a mystic, who also came to be worshiped at Delphi.

Apollo was the son of Zeus and was considered to be symbolic of the best elements of the Greek spirit. He represented art, music, poetry, beauty, health, political virtue, and moderate behavior. He was unique among the gods for bringing to people knowledge of the thoughts of Zeus. Thus his messages communicated through the oracle provided divine guidance for the best course of human affairs. Delphi was an appropriate place for a temple to Apollo because of the area's physical beauty and the ancient Greeks' belief that it was the true center of the world....

Dionysus was the god of irrationality, ecstasy, and drunkenness, and as such he was seen by the Greeks to provide a balance for the more serene aspects of Apollo. The two gods divided the religious duties of the sanctuary. During the three winter months, Apollo journeyed north to the land of Hyperborea, known in myth as the land of the blessed isles. He was replaced during these absences by Dionysus, although the oracle's activities continued without interruption."

Did the Orphics believe in Dionysus mysteries literally, did the Delphians believe in Dionysus mysteries literally, or did your rural Dionysians believe in Dionysus literally?

There may be no one time period or particular point where it began becoming interpretated that way, one man may hear it and be like Plutarch, adding a philosophical dimension to the mysteries, or another, your average person, may hear it and not add the philosophical dimension, making two seperate religions even from the same source.