Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Radorth · 05-27-2003, 08:18 AM

Islam rose by different means than Christianity BBT. And I don't seriously doubt the Koran, (which BTW describes only one miracle and even that is a stretch of the wording). Muhammed claimed no power to work miracles. These were added later in the hadith. They are not comparable in miracles, motives or means for salvation. Muhammed was a me-too prophet, who plagarizes the Bible not so subtly, but then denies the atonement because, of course, it wipes out the need for Muhammeds religion.

Rad

livius drusus · 05-27-2003, 08:40 AM

Radorth, this thread is not about Islam, communism, or even atheism for that matter. Your pontifications on those subjects are irrelevant. Please start a new thread (or 3) to discuss those topics, or if you would like, I will gladly split off the extant posts to a new thread.

Rational BAC has, in an attempt to get his discussion back on track, offered a definition of fundy. Let's please stay focused on that.

Thank you,
livius drusus
Moderator - GRD

Rational BAC · 05-27-2003, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bumble Bee Tuna
RBAC:

These two sentences all but explicitly scream "I am a Christian because Christianity rose to power really fast in its early days, leading me to believe a supernatural event happened and therefore the Bible is telling the truth about God".

Atheist and Christians believe that Islam is just a made up story, just like all the other religions. You are trying to be rational. You find the "made up story" explanation to be "unlikely" about Christianity yet likely about Islam. Why? Well, the reaosning you offered is "the surprisingly fast rise of Christianity and the tenacity and stubborness of its early martyrs".

I point out that Islam rose even faster (it also had martyrs, btw), and upon seeing that you pretend you never tried to make the argument. Well, looking at the statements I quoted above, I find it immensely hard to believe you weren't trying to make that argument. Call it "reading into" what you said too far, but I think I am reading it for exactly what it says. If you want me to read into the things you say though, I could give it a shot...

You are a rational person. Youtry to be rational in everything you do. I might even go so far as to say that you despise being irrational and feel stupid/guilty/wrong for doing so (as well you should, IMO!). However, your faith has also helped you in great ways in your life. You have mentioned the great change your born-again experience was. This makes your faith very dear to you. However, you recognize that your faith is irrational. You really don't like that. You really want to be rational, and try to pretend (this is why you felt the need to pick the username "Rational BAC"- being rational is your big focus, and you realize "BAC" stands for something that is definitely not rational. You want a rational foundation for your faith. Because of this, you developed your Argument from Numbers and Argument from Swiftly Increasing Numbers to try to give your faith a rational foundation. By no means do you consider these to be proof for God, but that's not what you want.

What you want is to be able to say: Look at this argument! Sure it doesn't prove God, but it at least says that theism isn't an absurd position.I could be wrong, but lets all just be friends, and live and let live. We're all rational here!...It doesn't work like that, I'm afraid. Your arguments are NOT rational. I think you recognize this, because you're always quick to deny your arguments came from your mouth as soon as someone points out the fallacies involved. But then as soon as you're done denying them, you go right back to spitting them out again when your faith is questioned. You can't stand to say "I just believe in God out of pure faith". That's too irrational for you, it makes you feel too guilty. You instead feel the need to say "Well, I believe in God because ______ implies that something supernatural probably happened 2000 years ago, and so it seems like I've got a decent chance of being right...THEN I use faith to bridge the gap". ____ is always either "Well, Christianity is so popular" (Argument from Numbers) or "Well, Christianity grew really fast" (The new, Argument from Rapidly Increasing Numbers) or even the good old Argument from Alleged Martyrs. None of these apply only to Christianity and your latest, the Argument from Increasing Numbers, applies much better to Islam.

If I really wanted to get into your deep subcoscious and probably be much more likely to be wrong, I'd say you secretly want to be an atheist because you realize it's the only rational conclusion. You even decided to come to II because you are subcosciously hoping to deconvert. Of course, that's almost certainly wrong, but while I'm making unsubstantiated assertions about your inner motives I might as well.

Now THAT is reading into your posts. Is it true? I have no idea. But I think it's a pretty good armchair psychiatrist guess. It doesn't matter, though- I only reply to what you post, not to what I think your hidden reasons are. The above was somewhat in jest.

What I would like from you, though, and perhaps I should devote a new thread to this:

Either A:
Admit that you do not have a rational foundation for your beliefs.
or B:
Explain what rational basis you have for your beliefs.

Every time this has come up before, you have chosen B and then used the Argument from Numbers or Argument from Swiftly Increasing Numbers as your rational foundation. And every time, I have pointed out how these arguments are fallacious and not applicable. What you need to do is either defend against my rebuttals or admit that the belief is not rational. If my free psychoanalysis is on the mark, though, you would be very troubled by being forced to admit not having a rational foundation.

I suspect the reason you can't call Xianity "just a story" but you have no problems doing so about all the other religions is just personal experience. It bothers you too much to admit that most of the seemingly smart people you know would buy into a fake story. Islam though, you don't know many followers of so it's easier to say that the faceless strangers were fooled.

So what do you say? Are you willing to admit that your beliefs have no rational foundation? If not, please create a separate thread to address my comments and discuss what your foundation is. If you are though, please, let's get this over with! I need to save the quote so I can remind you of it the next time you bring out your "hey, it's a toss-up, I think my beliefs are more probable than yours because _____" line.

I'm a nitpick, damnit, and I simply won't stand for inconsistent beliefs! I'm going to call you on them every time.

Yes, I know this post was both tediously long, AND off-topic, but it was really fun and I couldn't stop.

-B

My Gawd Bumble Bee --------that WAS a long one. Just noticed it too.

And I can tell you worked real hard on that post too. For that my condolences.

We obviously do have a difference in temperament.

You, I think would make an excellent bean counter (read accountant) Or maybe a bean counter psychiatrist---there are such types--you should stick with accounting though and make a bunch of bucks.---------and leave off the psychoanalyse part.--

---- while I would make an excellent "artiste" ---with emphasis on the "te"

Too bad I am not particularly artistically inclined. I do hope you make a great accountant though.

(Will get back to your post when I can get around to it.)

And don't try to "analyse" me too much psychologically. That is hardly an exact science and is beneath you.

Rational BAC · 05-27-2003, 08:57 AM

Sorry Moderators---------I got off topic too.

It is so easy to do you know.

Again. Sorry about that.

I still think the number of Fundies in this nation is a worthwhile topic and well worth researching---------for the peace of mind (or maybe not) of a lot of people.

Need to know WHAT we are researching though.

For lack of anything noticeably better offered so far------------

-----------I am going to go with MY definition of fundamentalist Christianity and see what I can find as far as numbers in polls and surveys.

Starboy · 05-27-2003, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rational BAC
OK with me Starboy--------

At least let us come up with some kind of concensus for Gawd's sake.

Are you looking for a consensus of atheists or religious or both?
Why don't you start a poll? You could list a set of alternates and let people choose. What you will get is what you have seen here. No consensus, but a range of opinion.

Starboy

Rational BAC · 05-27-2003, 09:27 AM

Starboy----

I am almost completely computer illiterate.

I have no idea how to make a poll on this thread. Or any thread. And too damned old to learn.

But I am sure you are very computer literate. If you want to start a poll on this thread -------then have at it.

Make yourself useful Starboy.

Starboy · 05-27-2003, 09:29 AM

Okay fine. Give me the list of poll questions and I'll make a poll for you.

livius drusus · 05-27-2003, 09:32 AM

You cannot make this thread into a poll at this point, BAC. If you and Starboy would like to negotiate a new one, please do so in PM and stop derailing your own thread.

The topic under discussion is fundies: what are they anyway and are they a minority among xians. Discuss this please, not communism, atheism, islam, or the ins and outs of poll-making.

Thank you,
livius drusus
Moderator - MD

Starboy · 05-27-2003, 09:35 AM

Drusus, we were negotiating just that. Rational BAC is a newbie and probably would have to be told how to make a PM as well. Get off my back.

Starboy

Rational BAC · 05-27-2003, 09:41 AM

OK

#1------The Bible is the inerrant word of God in all of its parts. It is the direct word of God and is not open to questioning by humans.

#2-----A fundamentalist believes that Genesis is correct in all its practical applications. Which means that the universe is only 6000 years old, that men lived with dinosaurs, that all the nonsense in Genesis is the inerrant word of God in all ways. No disbelief possible.

#3---A fundamentalist believes that his assertions (whatever they happen to be) are correct and that everyone else is going straight to hell --no salvation beyond that of a severely limited choice.

Actually I have run out of ideas. (Will admit that the first 2 were mine)

(I know that there were other ideas about this posted earlier in this thread. Don't really want to hunt them down. State them again please. )

Anyone else want to add anything else as far as "What is a Fundy"?

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05-27-2003, 08:18 AM	#151
Radorth Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,872	Islam rose by different means than Christianity BBT. And I don't seriously doubt the Koran, (which BTW describes only one miracle and even that is a stretch of the wording). Muhammed claimed no power to work miracles. These were added later in the hadith. They are not comparable in miracles, motives or means for salvation. Muhammed was a me-too prophet, who plagarizes the Bible not so subtly, but then denies the atonement because, of course, it wipes out the need for Muhammeds religion. Rad

05-27-2003, 08:40 AM	#152
livius drusus Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Selva Oscura Posts: 4,120	Radorth, this thread is not about Islam, communism, or even atheism for that matter. Your pontifications on those subjects are irrelevant. Please start a new thread (or 3) to discuss those topics, or if you would like, I will gladly split off the extant posts to a new thread. Rational BAC has, in an attempt to get his discussion back on track, offered a definition of fundy. Let's please stay focused on that. Thank you, livius drusus Moderator - GRD

05-27-2003, 08:57 AM	#154
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Sorry Moderators---------I got off topic too. It is so easy to do you know. Again. Sorry about that. I still think the number of Fundies in this nation is a worthwhile topic and well worth researching---------for the peace of mind (or maybe not) of a lot of people. Need to know WHAT we are researching though. For lack of anything noticeably better offered so far------------ -----------I am going to go with MY definition of fundamentalist Christianity and see what I can find as far as numbers in polls and surveys.

05-27-2003, 09:27 AM	#156
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Starboy---- I am almost completely computer illiterate. I have no idea how to make a poll on this thread. Or any thread. And too damned old to learn. But I am sure you are very computer literate. If you want to start a poll on this thread -------then have at it. Make yourself useful Starboy.

05-27-2003, 09:29 AM	#157
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Okay fine. Give me the list of poll questions and I'll make a poll for you.

05-27-2003, 09:32 AM	#158
livius drusus Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Selva Oscura Posts: 4,120	You cannot make this thread into a poll at this point, BAC. If you and Starboy would like to negotiate a new one, please do so in PM and stop derailing your own thread. The topic under discussion is fundies: what are they anyway and are they a minority among xians. Discuss this please, not communism, atheism, islam, or the ins and outs of poll-making. Thank you, livius drusus Moderator - MD

05-27-2003, 09:35 AM	#159
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Drusus, we were negotiating just that. Rational BAC is a newbie and probably would have to be told how to make a PM as well. Get off my back. Starboy

05-27-2003, 09:41 AM	#160
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	OK #1------The Bible is the inerrant word of God in all of its parts. It is the direct word of God and is not open to questioning by humans. #2-----A fundamentalist believes that Genesis is correct in all its practical applications. Which means that the universe is only 6000 years old, that men lived with dinosaurs, that all the nonsense in Genesis is the inerrant word of God in all ways. No disbelief possible. #3---A fundamentalist believes that his assertions (whatever they happen to be) are correct and that everyone else is going straight to hell --no salvation beyond that of a severely limited choice. Actually I have run out of ideas. (Will admit that the first 2 were mine) (I know that there were other ideas about this posted earlier in this thread. Don't really want to hunt them down. State them again please. ) Anyone else want to add anything else as far as "What is a Fundy"?

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