meritocrat

As a believer in freedom of thought, I feel that people have a right to hold and express racist beliefs.

But do you really have a right to dislike somebody simply because their skin colour is different (and one's skin colour is a minor aspect of a person's being)?

Misso

I think everyone has the right to dislike people, no matter what the criteria are. I just don't think people should put that dislike to practice.
I too believe in freedom of though, unlimited freedom of thought even, but I don't believe in unlimited freedom of expression, speech, etcetera. Freedom of expression can also mean you go about and kill small children, but there won't be many people standing for that kind of expression. I think that whoever said "my freedom ends where yours begins" was very right.

meritocrat

Even if people have a right to total freedom of speech/expression, that in itself cannot infringe on others' rights.

Misso

In the case of freedom of expression that all depends on how wide you see this. Like I said about killing small children, it can be seen as freedom of expression, but it's very much infringing on other people's rights. But also more everyday things like discrimination at work can be seen as freedom of expression, but can at the same time infringe on other people's rights and freedom.

In the case of freedom of speech things are a bit more difficult since some people still believe that words can't hurt and can't violate any rights and freedoms.

The thing about freedom is that there are two kinds: positive and negative. Positive freedom is "freedom to": freedom to do whatever you want; negative freedom is "freedom from": free from discrimination, insults, etcetera. People often overlook this negative freedom and just abuse the positive one. Expressing hate for a person, even if it is only in a verbal way, is abusing this positive freedom and ignoring the negative freedom that the other person has.

Psychic

Well … first of all I’d like to assure you that very very little people would be able to honestly keep their thoughts inside their head. Totally preventing thoughts from turning to expressions. I wonder how many times you have find it too hard to deal with someone you hate Nicely sympathetically. It requires registration of every emotion and every act and subjecting them to rational reasoning, which is practically requiring gigantic measures of energy and effort.
I think you also agree that most of the time we act out of our emotions.
So I think the model of freedom of thought you are proposing is not taking into consideration our psyches.
Besides, I am not a racist myself and I despise racism. BUT it’s not only the color of the skin that’s different! There are so many differences at the level of the genes, diseases shows this, there are many diseases that are more common in a certain race for example. BUT still it’s totally inhuman to deny any human his/her humanity! that’s how I see it! differences do and forever will exist amongst us, but it’s the humanitarian approach to life that should unite us.

bd-from-kg

meritocrat:
The problem here is that you're confusing very different meanings of "have a right". In one sense a person "has a right" to do something if he should be legally protected against attempts to retaliate against or punish him (in ways that would ordinarily be illegal) for doing it. Thus a person "has a right to" express racist beliefs in this sense if anyone who tries to beat him up or kill him for expressing such beliefs should be restrained or punished. Most of us would agree that people "have a right" to express racist beliefs in this sense, although it's not clear that the First Amendment guarantees it.

A somewhat weaker sense of "has a right" is that it should not be illegal to do the thing in question. Certainly (under ordinary conditions) a person has a right to have racist opinions in this sense. Indeed, this is the sense of "freedom of speech" which clearly is guaranteed by the First Amendment.

A third possible sense is that a person "has a right" to do something if others should not criticize, condemn, or ostracize him for doing it. Most people would say that people do not "have a right" to express racist views in this sense. In other words, we are perfectly justified in condemning, or refusing to have anything to do with, racists.

Yet another sense is that a person "has a right to" do something if it would not be immoral for him to do it. Most of us would agree that people do not "have a right" to hold or express racist beliefs in this sense.

Thus there is no contradiction between saying that people have a right to hold or express racist views in some senses, but not in others.

This is a perennial problem with "rights talk": people often think they're disagreeing when in fact they're talking about entirely different things.

Misso

I hate very few people, the ones I do hate I avoid as much as possible, and when I can't avoid contact I usually just smile and nod. The times I have expressed my feelings about someone I hated to that someone can, to my knowledge, be counted on one hand.

One doesn't have to like everyone, but can at least treat everyone with a certain level of dignity.
People choose their behaviour, and can be held responsible for that. But it doesn't make sense to hold someone responsible for something that is completely beyond the control of the person - and yet racism does excactly this. Hence I don't think people should express any hate based on racism, although I think they should remain free to think whatever they want..

True, but how would that come to expression? You can't very well hate someone because of, say, a particular protein that is in no way affecting everyday life. Skin colour is much easier to see, therefore much easier to judge on.

meritocrat

A person has a right to do anything that does not infringe on others' rights or freedoms. Ergo, simply being a racist does not violate others' rights.

Psychic

that's what I am talking about, you AVOID them! well think that's is a behaviour based on your ideology, and I don't think you will ever stop avoiding them until you stop hating them!

Wrong, if you treat other Races with a certain level of dignity, and treat your own race ... well... in a normal way, you are clearly being a racist treating people differently on basis of their race.

Misso

Being a racist doesn't, but expressing racism does infringe on people's rights and freedoms.

... and your point is? I'm not expressing my hate for those people based on an ideology, hating people is not one of my ideologies. I don't treat them different from some people I don't hate. It doesn't make a difference if I ignore someone because I hate the person, or if I ignore someone because I just choose to ignore the person. It would be different if I started ignoring only those people that I hated.

Yes, you are right about that. Although I don't see how that makes my statement about treating everyone with a certain level of dignity wrong...