Freethought & Rationalism Archive

luvluv · 04-10-2002, 04:39 PM

It has been posited in many posts in the last few weeks that God could control the behavior of his children and still give them free will. I am in this thread proposing two things:

1) God is more interested in character than behavior.

Character is defined, roughly, as an internal compass molded through experience, often pain, and yielding self-control and wisdom.

Behavior is defined simply as what a person does, good behavior being when a person obeys moral laws. In terms of behavior, the reason why a person decides to do what is right is irrelavent, so long as he does it.

2) Character is impossible without free will.

If all I was interested in was my children's behavior, I could just follow them around with a gun and I could be assured that they would be pretty well behaved. But that good behavior would not be who they were, it would be a state imposed upon them. When the gun leaves, much of the good behavior would probably go with it.

Or a more appropriate analogy for many of your suggestions would be if you could arrange your childs DNA such that they had no capacity to disobey you until their 21st birthday, would you do it? You would totally control your child's behavior, but that would be dependant on the adjustment you made in his nature, not in his own willingness to love and obey you. At age 21, the kid would revert to a pre-moral goon, as he would have never learned character, he would have just had a behavior forced upon him.

But character, as those of you with children well know, is much harder to develop then behavior. God could make us behave if He had no qualms about our freedom, but we could not develop character without freedom. It would never be "within" us, it would be imposed upon us from without.

tronvillain · 04-10-2002, 04:54 PM

Oh please. God can't create character?

luvluv · 04-10-2002, 04:56 PM

By it's definition, character is earned.

David Gould · 04-10-2002, 04:58 PM

Why does god value charachter? Of what value does it have in heaven?

Pomp · 04-10-2002, 05:07 PM

How do you find time to start and participate in so many threads?

By it's definition, character is earned.

So, to clarify, A has the exact same mental and emotional (and spiritual, if that floats your boat) makeup as B, but if A's is earned and B's is inherent or created, then A can be said to have "character" and B cannot? And Yahweh, for some reason, prefers A to B?

DRFseven · 04-10-2002, 05:11 PM

Quote:

luvluv: Character is defined, roughly, as an internal compass molded through experience, often pain, and yielding self-control and wisdom.

and...

Quote:

Character is impossible without free will.

Well, if experience gives us character, then character IS ONLY possible without free will. If we had free will, we wouldn't need experience, would we; the character would be available "for free."

And experience (along with, of course, our biological inheritence). does give us our character; it gives us everything.

Vorkosigan · 04-10-2002, 05:19 PM

I am jealous of all these people who have free will. Me, and everyone I know, is constrained by all sorts of factors physical, psychological and cultural. Who are these humans with free will? I want to meet them so I can learn to be like them.

Why should god be interested in character? It already knows everything there is to know about the subject.

Michael

luvluv · 04-10-2002, 05:49 PM

Pompous:

"How do you find time to start and participate in so many threads?"

I'm off work this week so I'm trying to wrap a few things up over here. It's not as big of a drag when I don't have to get up at 6:30 in the morning.

Yes God does prefer A to B, wouldn't you in your children?

DRF, the free in free will does not imply an absence of cost. It implies an absence of outside influence. Indeed, free will is a costly thing.

DRFseven · 04-10-2002, 05:56 PM

Quote:

luvluv: 1) God is more interested in character than behavior.

And, no he's not. As any fool who can read can see, he's interested in obedience. Period.

Eudaimonist · 04-10-2002, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv:
<strong>If all I was interested in was my children's behavior, I could just follow them around with a gun and I could be assured that they would be pretty well behaved. But that good behavior would not be who they were, it would be a state imposed upon them. When the gun leaves, much of the good behavior would probably go with it.</strong>

Are you saying, then, that in order for people to have moral character, we must live in a society without police or a legal system to interfere with everyone's free will? Does anyone have character today?

04-10-2002, 04:39 PM	#1
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	Free will: Character vs. Behavior It has been posited in many posts in the last few weeks that God could control the behavior of his children and still give them free will. I am in this thread proposing two things: 1) God is more interested in character than behavior. Character is defined, roughly, as an internal compass molded through experience, often pain, and yielding self-control and wisdom. Behavior is defined simply as what a person does, good behavior being when a person obeys moral laws. In terms of behavior, the reason why a person decides to do what is right is irrelavent, so long as he does it. 2) Character is impossible without free will. If all I was interested in was my children's behavior, I could just follow them around with a gun and I could be assured that they would be pretty well behaved. But that good behavior would not be who they were, it would be a state imposed upon them. When the gun leaves, much of the good behavior would probably go with it. Or a more appropriate analogy for many of your suggestions would be if you could arrange your childs DNA such that they had no capacity to disobey you until their 21st birthday, would you do it? You would totally control your child's behavior, but that would be dependant on the adjustment you made in his nature, not in his own willingness to love and obey you. At age 21, the kid would revert to a pre-moral goon, as he would have never learned character, he would have just had a behavior forced upon him. But character, as those of you with children well know, is much harder to develop then behavior. God could make us behave if He had no qualms about our freedom, but we could not develop character without freedom. It would never be "within" us, it would be imposed upon us from without.

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04-10-2002, 04:54 PM	#2
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Oh please. God can't create character?

04-10-2002, 04:56 PM	#3
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	By it's definition, character is earned.

04-10-2002, 04:58 PM	#4
David Gould Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 759	Why does god value charachter? Of what value does it have in heaven?

04-10-2002, 05:07 PM	#5
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	How do you find time to start and participate in so many threads? By it's definition, character is earned. So, to clarify, A has the exact same mental and emotional (and spiritual, if that floats your boat) makeup as B, but if A's is earned and B's is inherent or created, then A can be said to have "character" and B cannot? And Yahweh, for some reason, prefers A to B?

04-10-2002, 05:19 PM	#7
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	I am jealous of all these people who have free will. Me, and everyone I know, is constrained by all sorts of factors physical, psychological and cultural. Who are these humans with free will? I want to meet them so I can learn to be like them. Why should god be interested in character? It already knows everything there is to know about the subject. Michael

04-10-2002, 05:49 PM	#8
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	Pompous: "How do you find time to start and participate in so many threads?" I'm off work this week so I'm trying to wrap a few things up over here. It's not as big of a drag when I don't have to get up at 6:30 in the morning. Yes God does prefer A to B, wouldn't you in your children? DRF, the free in free will does not imply an absence of cost. It implies an absence of outside influence. Indeed, free will is a costly thing.

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