Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ierrellus · 04-10-2002, 10:09 AM

Ripe news today states our president's (and the majority of people polled on the subject} moral objections to human cloning.

IMO, most people who oppose cloning believe that whoever does it usurps the authority of God. Is this consensus not reminiscent of those who opposed Paul Erlich's cure for syphilis as going against God's natural punishment of promiscuity or those fundy preachers who believe that AIDS is God's retribution for homosexuality?

If these people believe in the big three Os, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence of their God, how could they believe that any mortal could thwart divine intervention in human affairs?

Ierrellus

free12thinker · 04-10-2002, 11:22 AM

I have always written off the religious right's "punishment" excuses for things like aids-homosexuality and syphillis-promiscuity.

That said, my only problem with cloning is the medical risks. In truth, no pregnancy is ever guaranteed to be free of risk or medical damage to the child. And so long as the president has his "religious" objectives, we may never find a non-political answer to the question I am about to raise.
"HOW SAFE IS CLONING, AND WHAT ARE THE GENUINE RISKS (%'s) INVOLVED IN YIELDING A HEALTHY BABY.

If we could ever get a non-political answer to this very question, and the percentages of yielding a healthy baby were even with those current percentages of natural pregnancies, than I would take no issue with cloning humans, or animals for that matter. But to make attempts at "getting it right", while in the meantime yielding a large percentage of disfigured or very sick babies, is unfair to the babies.

All of this said, I am no doctor, and I have no idea who to believe in the scientific-political arena's. It's widely known that people are often fearful of things like this from the get-go, and it is these fears that lead to overreactions or just plain lies.

Bottom line: If its as reasonably safe as general pregnancy, I see no moral conflict. Otherwise, don't put the kids through it.

tronvillain · 04-10-2002, 11:23 AM

Assuming a relatively perfect cloning process, I see nothing wrong with full human cloning. I have no problem at all with research.

Mageth · 04-10-2002, 11:30 AM

I listened to some of Bush's speech. A fine example of couching religious objections in pseudo-ethical BS. The only thing unethical going on here is the attempt to ban all human cloning, research and reproductive, because "nearly all Americans object to it," because reproductive cloning (at this time) has not been perfected, and because research may or may not produce useful results.

stumble69 · 04-10-2002, 11:41 AM

I think that we should allow the research of cloning humans to continue. If we saw cloning as "Interfereing with Gods will", then we would have to also look at every medical breakthrough as doing to same! After all, antibiotics, for example, save lives, and those lives would not have been allowed to continue if it were left to "Gods will"! Just a thought...

free12thinker · 04-10-2002, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stumble69:
<strong>I think that we should allow the research of cloning humans to continue. If we saw cloning as "Interfereing with Gods will", then we would have to also look at every medical breakthrough as doing to same! After all, antibiotics, for example, save lives, and those lives would not have been allowed to continue if it were left to "Gods will"! Just a thought...</strong>

A very good thought. The whole idea behind "gods will" and the "mysterious ways" of god are laughable and inconsistent. If cloning is to be considered sinful and immoral, simply because it mocks gods intentions, then we must ask ourselves what his intentions are. But that's a question most theists won't answer, hence, the mysterious ways nonsense. Does he bring hurricanes? Does he punish people while they're on earth? Does he have a plan for everyone? If the plan is to take an 18 year old, can he justify it? Free thinkers know better.

Pomp · 04-10-2002, 02:15 PM

I would object to reproductive cloning without adequate research beforehand to ensure that the liklihood of bringing a horribly deformed person into being was at least as low as the chances of bringing such a person into being through traditional means of reproduction. I find it simply ridiculous to object to any and all cloning, however. In fact, I find the ban highly objectionable. Cloning research holds the potential to one day save the life of someone I love. I'll thank the religious to keep their antiquated ethical notions out of medical research.

Alonzo Fyfe · 04-10-2002, 02:32 PM

I wrote the attached essay on human cloning shortly after the news on Dolly broke.

<a href="http://www.reproductivecloning.net/Articles/fyfe.htm" target="_blank">http://www.reproductivecloning.net/Articles/fyfe.htm</a>

Jamie_L · 04-11-2002, 04:37 AM

I think there are potential social and emotional problems involved in reproductive cloning, even if the process is perfected. (Imagine a father dealing with his sixteen-year-old daughter who looks EXACTLY like his wife did the first time he had sex with her.) There's also the added baggage a child has when her parents expect him/her to be exactly the same as the donor parent.

With that said, however, I don't think the process is "immoral" per se. It just has extra considerations that need to be treated seriously.

Jamie

tronvillain · 04-11-2002, 04:55 AM

I don't think those would be big problems if people were well informed about the process.

04-10-2002, 10:09 AM	#1
Ierrellus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,082	Is Human Cloning Immoral? Ripe news today states our president's (and the majority of people polled on the subject} moral objections to human cloning. IMO, most people who oppose cloning believe that whoever does it usurps the authority of God. Is this consensus not reminiscent of those who opposed Paul Erlich's cure for syphilis as going against God's natural punishment of promiscuity or those fundy preachers who believe that AIDS is God's retribution for homosexuality? If these people believe in the big three Os, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence of their God, how could they believe that any mortal could thwart divine intervention in human affairs? Ierrellus

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04-10-2002, 11:22 AM	#2
free12thinker Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: DC Metropolitan Area Posts: 417	I have always written off the religious right's "punishment" excuses for things like aids-homosexuality and syphillis-promiscuity. That said, my only problem with cloning is the medical risks. In truth, no pregnancy is ever guaranteed to be free of risk or medical damage to the child. And so long as the president has his "religious" objectives, we may never find a non-political answer to the question I am about to raise. "HOW SAFE IS CLONING, AND WHAT ARE THE GENUINE RISKS (%'s) INVOLVED IN YIELDING A HEALTHY BABY. If we could ever get a non-political answer to this very question, and the percentages of yielding a healthy baby were even with those current percentages of natural pregnancies, than I would take no issue with cloning humans, or animals for that matter. But to make attempts at "getting it right", while in the meantime yielding a large percentage of disfigured or very sick babies, is unfair to the babies. All of this said, I am no doctor, and I have no idea who to believe in the scientific-political arena's. It's widely known that people are often fearful of things like this from the get-go, and it is these fears that lead to overreactions or just plain lies. Bottom line: If its as reasonably safe as general pregnancy, I see no moral conflict. Otherwise, don't put the kids through it.

04-10-2002, 11:23 AM	#3
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Assuming a relatively perfect cloning process, I see nothing wrong with full human cloning. I have no problem at all with research.

04-10-2002, 11:30 AM	#4
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I listened to some of Bush's speech. A fine example of couching religious objections in pseudo-ethical BS. The only thing unethical going on here is the attempt to ban all human cloning, research and reproductive, because "nearly all Americans object to it," because reproductive cloning (at this time) has not been perfected, and because research may or may not produce useful results.

04-10-2002, 11:41 AM	#5
stumble69 New Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada Posts: 3	I think that we should allow the research of cloning humans to continue. If we saw cloning as "Interfereing with Gods will", then we would have to also look at every medical breakthrough as doing to same! After all, antibiotics, for example, save lives, and those lives would not have been allowed to continue if it were left to "Gods will"! Just a thought...

04-10-2002, 02:15 PM	#7
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	I would object to reproductive cloning without adequate research beforehand to ensure that the liklihood of bringing a horribly deformed person into being was at least as low as the chances of bringing such a person into being through traditional means of reproduction. I find it simply ridiculous to object to any and all cloning, however. In fact, I find the ban highly objectionable. Cloning research holds the potential to one day save the life of someone I love. I'll thank the religious to keep their antiquated ethical notions out of medical research.

04-10-2002, 02:32 PM	#8
Alonzo Fyfe Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 920B Milo Circle Lafayette, CO Posts: 3,515	I wrote the attached essay on human cloning shortly after the news on Dolly broke. <a href="http://www.reproductivecloning.net/Articles/fyfe.htm" target="_blank">http://www.reproductivecloning.net/Articles/fyfe.htm</a>

04-11-2002, 04:37 AM	#9
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	I think there are potential social and emotional problems involved in reproductive cloning, even if the process is perfected. (Imagine a father dealing with his sixteen-year-old daughter who looks EXACTLY like his wife did the first time he had sex with her.) There's also the added baggage a child has when her parents expect him/her to be exactly the same as the donor parent. With that said, however, I don't think the process is "immoral" per se. It just has extra considerations that need to be treated seriously. Jamie

04-11-2002, 04:55 AM	#10
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	I don't think those would be big problems if people were well informed about the process.

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