Vespertine

Evangelion seems to be making rash generalizations. He hates America and all Americans because of some loud mouthed idiots? I don't assume that all Canadians are stupid because Tom Green is an idiot.

I'm an American and I'm not stupid, I'm not bigoted, I'm not intolerant, I'm not fundamentalist, and I'm NOT ALONE.

Harumi

Well, as an American, before, I used to be anti-war. After holding a very intelligent discussion in class, and looking at all the issues, especially the economic views of it, I've changed stances.

I'm not happy about my change in stance, and I detest the economic reasons for going to war, but in a world of reality, I suppose it's necessary. And if you want me to state my reasons for changing my mind, I will, if you're curious. It's a bit complicated to explain, and I'm not very good at explaining. Hell, I'm not good at stating anything.

I'm not ignorant. Given the chance, I would devour every book I can get my hands on, even those I disagree with. I go to a school with people from practically every country, and we're just a highschool, not a college. None of us has killed each other yet, which proves that we're not intolerant. Religious people and atheists live peacefully together.

Those who are anti-American don't truly understand what America is all about. Those who are anti-American are the more ignorant ones, because they're the ones who are illogically grouping people together because they're from one country.

There's problems with France and Germany. Am I suddenly anti-French and anti-German? No. So don't do the same to Americans.

Just my two cents, and I apologize for my lack of clarity beforehand.

Mageth

from the petition letter posted by Gunnaheave:

As American citizens with the greatest freedoms in the world, we shouldn't stand for such disrespect and naivete from a college senior who is clearly ignorant of actual U.S. policy.

The irony is killing me.

Mageth

I sent Joshua (the author of the petition) the following email:

Joshua:

I read your petition letter, and was particularly struck by the irony in this sentence:

"As American citizens with the greatest freedoms in the world, we shouldn't stand for such disrespect and naivete from a college senior who is clearly ignorant of actual U.S. policy. "

Perhaps you should consider your own clear ignorance of the freedoms we as Americans are afforded by our great Constitution. Included in our "greatest freedoms", thankfully, are the right to free speech, freedom of expression, and the freedom to protest our Government and its policies in the (peaceful) ways we see fit.

Respectfully:
<my real name>

Mageth

I received this reply:

The part that gets me is the "female with a minority opinion" bit. :banghead:

Mageth

My reply:

Joshua:

Thanks for replying. I'll reply to segments of your reply, if you don't mind:

I'm all for freedom of speech, no matter what that speech is. But, this could have done a better way.

Perhaps, but our freedoms protect the means of expression as well. She chose a peaceful, and a constitutionally-protected, form of expression and protest. You have a right to disagree with her opinions and her form of protest, but attempting to silence her or restrict her method of protest goes against the very spirit of what the flag stands for.

She claims it was meant to be private, which cannot be true, since she had the meeting with the coach, the team, and the school, making it clear to her that it was no longer her own private protest...yet she kept on doing it.

I think by "private" in this context she means the protest is hers and not meant to represent the views of the other players, coach, team or school. A "protest" done in private would not be much of a protest, after all, would it?

Let's look at the team's response, however, from http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0221-07.htm:

"Smith's refusal to face the flag, however, went unnoticed until some players and their parents mentioned it to first-year coach Shawn Lincoln. He spoke with Smith, then held a team meeting.

""The team is like any other collection of people," Lincoln said. "Everybody has their own beliefs and opinions, and we're no different." "

So it appears the team members and coach (and school president, BTW) understand that it's Ms. Smith's "private" protest, and have accepted her right to protest in this manner.

She claims the flag symbolizes inequality of the US system, then she turns around and says the US flag stands for the freedom to speak out and be heard.

Here are Smith's words, just to be clear:

"For some time now, the inequalities that are embedded into the American system have bothered me, as they are becoming progressively worse and it is clear that the government's priorities are not on bettering the quality of life for all of its people, but rather on expanding its own power, I cannot, in good conscience, salute the flag."

It can't stand for good things if it stands for things so bad that she has to turn away from it.

Why not? I, and I assume Toni Smith, both are capable of seeing both the good (including our constitution, and our liberties embodied by that document, including our freedoms of speech/expression/protest) and the bad (e.g. expansionism and inequality) in America. I assume you can see both good and bad in America, as well. If you truly thought there was only "good" in America, why your protest against Smith's actions, which are protected by the Constitution?

Not only that, but many men and women have fought under the flag, and she is showing a total lack of respect for those who came before us who gave her the right to do what she's doing.

A bit contradictory, there, aren't you? In my opinion, it's the utmost tribute of respect to "those who fought under the flag" to actually exercise the rights they worked so hard to give her. Conversely, it's disrespectful to "those who fought under the flag" to seek to silence one of our citizens exercising the hard-won rights they fought for!

She's not being honest about her intentions,...

I think she's been quite honest about her intentions (I see no reason to disbelieve what she's said, such as what I quoted above, or question her motives), and shown great bravery in standing by her actions in the face of controvery.

...and as a female with a minority opinion, she's proving that there are no so called inequalities built into the US system.

I don't think the "inequalities" she alludes to are limited female/minority opinion inequalities (they may include inequalities in those areas, but I don't presume to speak for Ms. Smith).

And interesting that you would claim there are "no so called inequalities built into the US system" while at the same time working to supress her minority protest!

I think most agree that she could have a truly private protest, and she could atleast have some logic when it comes to the protest to begin with.

What exactly is a "truly private" protest? Of what use would such be? A protest, by definition, is not private. And your accusation of her not having logic when it comes to the protest is baseless. It appears, from the reaction and discussion it's raised, to have been quite an effective, and thus "logical", protest.

And, BTW, what "most agree" has no bearing on the subject. She has the constitutional right to protest in the way she sees fit even if everyone else in America disagrees with her. That's what's "good" about this country.

She clearly didn't think any of this through before she decided to go ahead and do it.

Another baseless claim. Ms. Smith appears to be quite a thoughtful, and concerned, young person. I have confidence that she thought this through quite thoroughly before proceeding.

And from your arguments, I think it may be you that hasn't thoroughly thought things through.

Respectfully,

<me>

Harumi

Did she know what she was protesting about? Is she trying to benefit the country through her protest?

It's one thing to protest for the heck of just standing out and 'looking cool'. Many Americans forget that our freedoms don't necessarily give us license.

Shadowy Man

Does it matter? Does her playing basketball benefit the country somehow?

She has every right to do what she did. If anyone has a problem with it they don't have to look at her while she does it.

Mageth

Did she know what she was protesting about? Is she trying to benefit the country through her protest?

Let's ask her:

"For some time now, the inequalities that are embedded into the American system have bothered me, as they are becoming progressively worse and it is clear that the government's priorities are not on bettering the quality of life for all of its people, but rather on expanding its own power, I cannot, in good conscience, salute the flag."

- Toni Smith

Harumi

Right. I agree that she has a right to protest and do what she did. It's far better than how certain people protest against issues *cough*pro-lifers*cough*.

And considering that the US loves athletes, I wouldn't be surprised if they considered her playing basketball to be more beneficial than protesting.

All in the good ol' US of A.