notMichaelJackson

From my observations of Biblical verses and Christian apologetics, it is obvious that we are all going to hell if the Christian God exists.

Premise 1: The Christian God exists.
Premise 2: The Bible gives an accurate description of him.

First, Jesus proclaims that "none shall enter the kingdom except through me.” The vast majority of people in the world have never even heard of Jesus, so at least 66% of the people who have walked the earth cannot enter heaven, nor can young children who never had the chance to accept Jesus.

Second, there is the issue of death in the state of sin. Fundamentalists claim that we must confess all of our sins to God and be forgiven in order for us to enter the kingdom of heaven. Similarly, the Catholic Church holds the doctrine of “mortal sin,” a sin that separates us from God. In order to have a mortal sin forgiven, we must confess this sin to a priest. If either of these two premises is true, then no one can be sure they are saved, because it will always be possible for us to commit a sin and die before we have a chance to perform whatever task is necessary to have it forgiven.

Note that it is not just the modern Christians who have proved that it is next to impossible to enter heaven. Jesus himself stated that "few” would enter the kingdom. "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” (Matt 7:13-14). “For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matt 22:14). Also, despite fundamentalist claims, not all Christians will enter heaven. “Not every one that saith unto me ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter into the kingdom of heaven…” (Matt 7:21).


Also, extreme righteousness, meekness, and baptism are required to enter heaven. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt 5:20)
“Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt 18:3)
“Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

Oh, and if any of us do succeed and perform the Herculian task of entering heaven, we shouldn't get too used to it. Remember that we will have the ability to uprise and be forced out, unless our free will is removed.

My thesis is that it is next to impossible to enter heaven (whatever it is). Therefore, worship of the Christian God is not justifiable as it so improbable that anyone will enter heaven.

(I posted this a couple of months ago, but since no one was able to refute it I though I would post it again.)

EstherRose

Actually Protestants believe it is belief in Jesus alone that saves us.

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

True, not everyone who claims to believe in the Lord will be saved. There are many cults out there whose teachings are not truly Christian. They teach a different Jesus. Jesus warned his disciples about them earlier in the passage. Many who claim to be Christians do not have the good fruit of the Holy Spirit. Some believe this is referred to in this passage.

Matthew 7
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

I disagree. Only acceptance of Jesus as our Saviour is needed for eternal salvation.

Matthew 5
20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

In the whole passage, Jesus is condemning the Pharisees for their legalism; following the letter of the Law while ignoring the spirit of it. The righteousness He referred to was the heart for God.

Matthew 18
3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

I don’t think He’s referring to meekness, but rather the Christian should be trusting and unpretentious.

John 3
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

There are a couple of different ways to look at this verse. Some believe it refers to water baptism of repentance and the baptism of the Holy Spirit (which is my belief). Others believe it refers to a purification and the Holy Spirit. Another is born in flesh (water=amniotic fluid) and of the Holy Spirit. Please note that baptism of the Holy Spirit is required to be saved. When you accept Christ in a true repentant and submissive way, you are baptized with the Holy Spirit and sealed for eternity.


Jesus mentions the difficulties involved in getting eternal salvation, but He does not say it is impossible. Worship of God is justifiable in my opinion because God gives everyone an opportunity to come to Him. Some accept His gift, others don’t.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

winstonjen

He also loves them so much that he'll torture those who don't do that.

Jamie_L

I have a friend who is a lapsed catholic - still a believer, but not particularly religious or overtly pious.

We had a religious discussion once in which I said I never really worried about being wrong in my atheims, because if the Christians were right, and God were truely benevolent, he wouldn't punish me for making an error in judgement based on the reason He gave me and my observations of the world He created.

And my friend said: "but what if you die and come before God and he says, 'Sorry. Rules are rules.'"

Not being very good at face-to-face confrontation, I didn't really push the issue much farther. Later, however, I came to the conclusion that if "Rules are rules," we are all screwed, my friend included.

Clearly, humans can not come to any kind of consensus on what the rules are. My friend is clearly not following any established set of rules - he's basically following his own conscience, just like me. Obviously, he doesn't think the Catholic rules were the "right" rules. And, if "rules are rules", we certainly can't pick and choose which one's we'll follow (like belief in Jesus) and which ones we won't (like Catholic ritual).

And if "rules are rules", and God will punish people for the misfortune of being born to parents who are following the wrong rules, then that God certainly doesn't qualify as being benevolent.

If rules were the be-all-end-all, you'd think those rules would be spelled out in the night sky by the stars, so we'd all know them. Sheesh.

Jamie

beastmaster

Is the probability of personal salvation the only justifiable basis for worship of the Xn god? I don't think so and you certainly have failed to supply your argument that it is. Many religions have no concept of personal salvation, and yet uphold the worship of their god(s).

(I do agree that your argument is an effective -- albeit not insurmountable -- rejoinder to Pascal's Wager, since the Wager assumes that personal salvation is the sole efficient basis for justification in Xn belief.)