Kenny

I agree with you; the question at the core of CTMEZ’s post is a valid one and a difficult one to answer (but not impossible). I don’t have any problem with the core question itself; only a problem with manner in which it is presented. I’m simply making the suggestion that CTMEZ might find discussions more interesting and find more willing participants from the other side if he asks his questions in such a way that shows a willingness to dialog rather than in a way that (intentionally or not) comes across as condescending and gives the impression that he is more interested in mocking his opponents than seeing what their answers might be.

God Bless,
Kenny

critical thinking made ez

Albert your answer is a little confusing, could you clarify please?
Are you saying that evil comes from within a person or from outside the person of both. Could man have fallen without the interference of Satan? …Just as Satan fell without the help of an evil outside source.

[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: critical thinking made ez ]</p>

critical thinking made ez

Kenny, I didn't get condescending until after your bad analogy and the very condescending like post you are blaming me with. If you didn't feel like answering the post as you admit, then you shouldn't have tried. Maybe an nap was what was called for instead of trying to kill a discussion. night,night.

bgponder

Brother Albert,

I confess I am at loss to reconcile this with regard to the OP. It seems that Adam could not have known, before eating of the Tree, even if he was created in God's image, (conscience? I ask for clarification) what his action could have entailed in the long term, or indeed that he could or would have imagined it; and further, that Satan was present as tempter to Adam/Eve in their pre-knowledge state seems to be a blatant exascerbation of this state of affairs only attributable to the Providence of God, at best, or an unfair(?) testing of primal humanity, at worst.

Peace Cornbread Joy now and in 2002 Barry

Albert Cipriani

Dear EZ,
I apologize for being so unlike your namesake. It's just that the problem of evil is so profound and your question addresses such a simplistic aspect of it, I wanted to expand the topic.

Now you are asking whether evil comes from within or without a person. This, too, is a metaphoric not really an intellectual question. So any kind of intellectual answer is doomed to be at least half wrong.

In Japan they have a word for such questions: "Moo" (sp?). It’s the colloquial equivalent of the legal term "demur," which means that a yes/no response cannot be given, or the teenage-speak of "Oh, I'm really busy this Friday." To such indelicate questions, the most merciful answer answers a different question. Ergo, I've tried to answer what your metaphoric questions hint at.

Evil does not exist. Only what is real exists. Evil, by definition, then, is what is real that lacks one or more of its constituent parts. For example, a hot dog without relish! So when we speak of choosing evil, what we really mean is that we are choosing something less real in place of what is more real.

For living beings, choices which extend life are the most real. Conversely, evil is the choice that restricts life, ultimately to the point of choosing death over life. Ergo, the Biblical passage of God saying: "I place before you life and death, choose life," and Jesus saying, "I've come to bring you life and life more abundantly."

All that is required for an evil choice to be made is the power of free will. Ergo, Adam and Eve would have had an opportunity to become evil without any help from Satan just as Satan, the most powerful and intelligent of all angels, had the opportunity to become evil without the any help from his friends. – Cheers, Albert the Traditional Catholic

Albert Cipriani

Dear Barry,
You are making a god of knowledge when you say:

You are correct that Adam could not know the full consequences of his evil act. Likewise, we cannot know the full consequences of our evil or virtuous acts. Such knowledge, tempting as it seems and as much as we might wish for it, is a fatally false god before us. Thank God we do not have it.

For if we had perfect knowledge of our moral action's consequences, they would cease to be moral actions. They would be inevitable actions, tantamount to the rings of Saturn, which cannot help but be the rings of Saturn.

Our Creator has created more than enough heavenly bodies that cannot help but reflect His glory through the inevitability of His laws of nature. Human nature is another matter. The precious few clumps of atoms endowed with life (His Holy Spirit), have the capacity to share in their Creator's creative act. Through our free will we WILLINGLY reflect His glory or not... something the rings of Saturn cannot do.

For this, the veil of knowledge must necessarily be drawn, that is, a certain amount of blindness is necessary. Otherwise, our free will would not be free. If we had full knowledge ("Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.") of what we do, we could do neither evil nor good. With full knowledge of good and evil (the name of the tree in the garden, by the way) we would cease to be moral beings. We would only be able to do our Creator's will (like the thick bricks that do our will) and thus we would forfeit our destiny of being His co-creators. – Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: Albert Cipriani ]</p>

John Paul

What I have always believed about this is that God had to put us here with Satan to decide. God gave man the free will to decide between the two.

I guess (own interpretation here) that God felt good enough about it that even though we are here so close to Satan, that some of us would still choose God, which requires a higher faith and obedience level. That's just what I've always thought.

The Apostle

critical thinking made ez

So it would seem that God stacked the deck against man and further, did not warn him of the evil ways of the creature in the Garden. Sounds like your God wanted to play this game of crime and punishment.

It appears we both agree that God set man up for failure by the double helping of evil, from within and from Satan. My original question as to God's behavior stands.

John Paul

I've also always thought that Christianity doesn't have to be that hard.... but someone's bound to make it that way. Truth is...Jesus was our sacrifice in the same way that OT Jews had to sacrifice lambs for their sins. Because of Adam as I see we've been discussing lately, we all had the nature to sin. Like father, like son eh?

Just to accept that gift He gave us, and live lovingly towards one another as He taught, all in His name of course so that He might be glorified (He's God not me). That's what simplified Christianity is to me.

I'm just here to let people know that...

John Paul

Alas sir, one hasn't been reading his Bible lately. Or maybe you skipped over a part...

Gen 2:17 - "For in the day you eat thereof thou shalt surely die."

That pretty much states the punishment for evil ways to me...