Freethought & Rationalism Archive

12-22-2002, 10:31 AM

I was very pleased when I read The Times yesterday. Two out of three op-ed articles were no-holds-barred attacks on the Anglican church and the new Archbishop of Canterbury, by Matthew Parris and Jonathan Meades. This is in what was traditionally the paper of the Establishment and which has usually had solemn leaders on religious occasions such as xmas and easter about the truth of xianity.Perhaps, despite the worst efforts of the Blair Government, the UK is moving towards an largely secular society.

victorialis · 12-23-2002, 02:17 AM

DMB, I'd be fascinated to read the articles you've mentioned, but upon searching the Times and Sunday Times website I was unable to identify them positively. Could you give article titles, or confirm dates?

I've been resident in the UK for three years now, having given up on a place where church-state separation seems to be a dying memory. It is a relief to live in a society that, to me, seems quite secular already, despite the established church.

What do you think of Pope Rowan? In light of the start he's made, I expect great entertainment from him. Such a bushy, growling contrast to the pink, unctuous, and avuncular George Carey. If the Archbishop fancies himself to be the new Opposition, it will make lots of media turbulence -- and no difference whatsoever. Much heat and no light. The layers of irony here are just too rich to go unsavoured.

Doesn't the PM have a hand in nominating the A of C? Hmmm... is this all staged, do you think? Are we being managed?

The "solemn leaders on religious occasions... about the truth of xianity" which seem to leave both of us unimpressed are just so much elevator music. What we might see now is an actual discussion.

Heh. Or maybe not. I'm too new here to know. The initial reactions I heard to the Dimbleby lecture had a "tut-tut" quality to them.

Surely the Blair Government is not bizarre enough to drive people to religion? Fascinated as I am by New Labour, that possibility doesn't worry me. Every last one of the Brits I know is far too sensible for that.

Gnome · 12-23-2002, 02:34 AM

Those'll be these two...

<a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,175-520219,00.html" target="_blank">Parris</a>

"It is not enough for the Archbishop to insist that God could underwrite morality and politics. No doubt He could, if He existed."

<a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,175-520220,00.html" target="_blank">Meades</a>

Though it's not all good - this was in last week's New Statesman. It's one of the worst articles I've read in a LONG time

<a href="http://www.newstatesman.com/site.php3?newTemplate=NSTemplate_NS&newTop=Section :+Front+Page&newDisplayURN=Section:+Front+Page" target="_blank">New Statesman</a>

[edited to add a lovely quote from Parris's article]

[ December 23, 2002: Message edited by: Gnome ]</p>

Vorkosigan · 12-23-2002, 03:06 AM

<jealousy> If only the US was as advanced.

victorialis · 12-23-2002, 05:02 AM

Cheers, Gnome! The two Sunday Times op-eds were brilliant.

As for the New Statesman, however --

"Secular societies may imagine they are post-religious, but actually they are ruled by repressed religion."

Now there's a howler. Grey appears to be post-cognitive. I wonder what repressed cultural artifact is actually ruling him.

[ December 23, 2002: Message edited by: victorialis ]</p>

12-22-2002, 10:31 AM	#1
DMB Guest Posts: n/a	Progress in the UK I was very pleased when I read The Times yesterday. Two out of three op-ed articles were no-holds-barred attacks on the Anglican church and the new Archbishop of Canterbury, by Matthew Parris and Jonathan Meades. This is in what was traditionally the paper of the Establishment and which has usually had solemn leaders on religious occasions such as xmas and easter about the truth of xianity.Perhaps, despite the worst efforts of the Blair Government, the UK is moving towards an largely secular society.

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12-23-2002, 02:17 AM	#2
victorialis Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Midlands, UK Posts: 195	DMB, I'd be fascinated to read the articles you've mentioned, but upon searching the Times and Sunday Times website I was unable to identify them positively. Could you give article titles, or confirm dates? I've been resident in the UK for three years now, having given up on a place where church-state separation seems to be a dying memory. It is a relief to live in a society that, to me, seems quite secular already, despite the established church. What do you think of Pope Rowan? In light of the start he's made, I expect great entertainment from him. Such a bushy, growling contrast to the pink, unctuous, and avuncular George Carey. If the Archbishop fancies himself to be the new Opposition, it will make lots of media turbulence -- and no difference whatsoever. Much heat and no light. The layers of irony here are just too rich to go unsavoured. Doesn't the PM have a hand in nominating the A of C? Hmmm... is this all staged, do you think? Are we being managed? The "solemn leaders on religious occasions... about the truth of xianity" which seem to leave both of us unimpressed are just so much elevator music. What we might see now is an actual discussion. Heh. Or maybe not. I'm too new here to know. The initial reactions I heard to the Dimbleby lecture had a "tut-tut" quality to them. Surely the Blair Government is not bizarre enough to drive people to religion? Fascinated as I am by New Labour, that possibility doesn't worry me. Every last one of the Brits I know is far too sensible for that.

12-23-2002, 02:34 AM	#3
Gnome Junior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: London Posts: 39	Those'll be these two... <a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,175-520219,00.html" target="_blank">Parris</a> "It is not enough for the Archbishop to insist that God could underwrite morality and politics. No doubt He could, if He existed." <a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,175-520220,00.html" target="_blank">Meades</a> Though it's not all good - this was in last week's New Statesman. It's one of the worst articles I've read in a LONG time <a href="http://www.newstatesman.com/site.php3?newTemplate=NSTemplate_NS&newTop=Section :+Front+Page&newDisplayURN=Section:+Front+Page" target="_blank">New Statesman</a> [edited to add a lovely quote from Parris's article] [ December 23, 2002: Message edited by: Gnome ]</p>

12-23-2002, 03:06 AM	#4
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	<jealousy> If only the US was as advanced.

12-23-2002, 05:02 AM	#5
victorialis Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Midlands, UK Posts: 195	Cheers, Gnome! The two Sunday Times op-eds were brilliant. As for the New Statesman, however -- "Secular societies may imagine they are post-religious, but actually they are ruled by repressed religion." Now there's a howler. Grey appears to be post-cognitive. I wonder what repressed cultural artifact is actually ruling him. [ December 23, 2002: Message edited by: victorialis ]</p>

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