Bubba

Got into a debate today with a guy over psalm 22. He said that the fact that Romans cast lots for Jesus clothing was proof of predicted prophecy and proof of the inspiration and infallibility of the Bible. How do I respond to this? I told him that could have been a later embellishment but his response was "if you had been there when jesus died and know your scripture you'd be quaking in your boots."

Any thoughts on how to win this little brush firght?

I plan on responding with the morality of the old testament and trying to show him that the Bible is a flawed book in other ways. Not sure that this is the best course of action though...wish I had a better response.

In Darwin

Bubba

not a theist

Two possible avenues to take with this one.

1.) This may have been a common practice of ancient times. Did the soldiers really just come up with this idea for Jesus? More likely, they had been doing this for quite a long time for all crucified criminals. In fact, the very mention of it in the psalm would tend to indicate that it was a very old practice and was not unique to Jesus. So this is a rather unexceptional event.

2.) This part of the Passion Narrative may have been composed to fit the psalm. The author may well have simply decided that this psalm must have referred to Jesus and therefore structured the events in the Passion Narrative on this psalm. So it may not have happened at all.

Bubba

Having tried number two, I'm going to try number one. I'm not really sure that ANY of the supposed prophecy events of the OT/NT time are predictive.

Bubba

Bubba

Although perhaps striping someone naked to punish them was not a common practic during King David's time-anyone else have some historica information?

Bubba

CX

First since the NT accounts were clearly written with the OT in mind there is no satisfactory argument against the possibility of literary embellishment.

Secondly, I thought there was some speculation that the whole JofA bit was parallel to something from Josephus so was the casting lots bit in the Josephus story? I don't have a reference handy.

GarColga

"The missionaries will say that verse 22:19 is a prophecy that people will cast lots for the Messiah's garments and will mention the events in Matt 27:35, Mark 15:24, and John 19:23-24 where it is said that they cast lots over Jesus' garments.

The Reply is that as the rest of this psalm refered to David, it is logical that this also refers to David. The verse says "They divide my cloths among themselves, casting lots for my garments" Notice that verse 8 says that the person whose cloths is being divided takes count of his bones while they look on and gloat. Clearly this is a man who is starving. I suggest a careful reading of the entire psalm from a Jewish translation".


http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/P...tings/ps22.htm

mike_decock

Thanks for that link! I've been looking for a solid, not too wordy refutation of Psalm 22 as prophetic.

-Mike..

TheDiddleyMan

I suggest that people look at Raymond Brown's 2 part volume "Death of the Messiah." I cannot remember what Brown's conclusion regarding this particular passage was, but Brown is generally a balanced scholar who lets the chips land where they may...I doubt he regards this part of the passion narrative as historical.


Kevin

Metacrock

No two is the much more serious argument. I don't think it works that way. I don't think they embellished the passage to fit the pslam and then went out and said "see this proves Jesus was the Messiah cause it fits this pslam." People in the ancient world were just as practicle as they are today. I think what really matterd to them was that Jesus fit their expectations about the Messiah, and they pitch the story to indicate this.

I don't think that fulfillment of any one thing really proves much, but over all there is an amazing amount of fulfillment.


Is The Bible The Word of God?

mike_decock

The word "pierced" as rendered in most Christian translations of the Psalms is a dishonest translation. The Hebrew word ka-'ari does not mean "pierce", it literally means "like the lion" and would best be rendered as "gnaw".

Put verse 17 in light of the surrounding verses:

Psalms 22:13
They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

Psalms 22:21
Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

To stretch the meaning of ka-'ari to mean the piercing of crucifixion is incorrect and dishonest.

Considering that author would probably have been familiar with the Psalm, it is reasonable to assume that the narrative was embellished to echo the passion expressed in Psalm 22. That doesn't mean the embellishment was done with the intention of proving that Jesus was the fulfillment of prophecy although that's how Christians use it today.

-Mike...