Bumble Bee Tuna

What happened to all those people who existed before Jesus came around and saved everyone? Were they all sent to Hell? This seems like the logical conclusion based on most apologetics I've seen. By apologetics, I mean:

We are all sinners, we deserve Hell. God cannot have sin in his presence because it is contrary to his nature. He has no choice but to send sinners to Hell. He could only forgive the sins by sacrificing his divine son. Only that is powerful enough to satisfy justice.

So only Jesus can save us, and without him you can't get to Heaven? Well, looks like all those people before Jesus were doomed for Hell. If they were not, how were they saved? How does this not conflict with God's justice and nature?

Of course, maybe some of you do think they're all in Hell (I'm guessing Magus55). But most people are a wee bit dissettled with the idea of God just letting people be doomed for Hell for such a long time before starting the New Covenant, I think. Doesn't seem too loving.

-B

beth

The righteous were sent to Abraham's Bosom. I suppose a level in hell reserved for the righteous. During the three days that Christ was dead, he descended into hell and witnessed to those in there. They then received salvation by belief in the Messiah. John the Baptist and Lazurus prepared those in Abraham's Bosom by telling them of the Messiah.

Bumble Bee Tuna

so...uh...I thought Christian theology was along the lines of nobody can be righteous except with the help of Jesus. And since Jesus didn't exist yet...How were these fellas at "Abraham's Bosom" (whatever that's supposed to mean) righteous?

I'm also confused, do you mean to say Jesus witnessed only to the righteous at Abraham's Bosom in Hell ir did he witness to everyone in Hell?

Had to bump this...1 reply? Come on people.

-B

beth

Before Christ, people lived under the law. Those who kept the law were the righteous.

malookiemaloo

No I do not agree because nobody was capable of keeping the Law.

On the original point, it is clear from the Bible that no-one could be saved if Jesus had not died. Now I do not have a problem with people being saved 'in advance' but Jesus had a choice about whether to go to the cross or not and He could have said 'no'.

However this raises again the point about God's foreknowledge as distinct from but not not in contradiction to His sovereignity.


m

beth

I did not say that they were saved without Christ. I said that the righteous dead were in Abraham's Bosom. The righteous were those who lived by the law and served God. True that no one could keep the law, but that is what the Day of Attonement was for- the forgiveness of sin.

malookiemaloo

Good point well made but the Day of Atonment did not remove sin as such-it simply prefigured the cross.


m

beth

Yes, that is the purpose of Yom Kippur, the atonement of sin. When the scape goat had the sins of the nation confessed over it and was released, it became Israel's sin for the past year. That sin was removed from Israel through the sin sacrifice and the scape goat..

Amos

You mean they preached "the good news" to the dead?

Biff the unclean

Before Jesus mentioned it the Jews didn't know that there was a Hell (funny, the Magi religions knew), they also didn't know that they had original sin (the Midrash makes it quite clear that they don't), that God was a trinity and they weren't all that clear on if there was life after death at all.

Ya gotta wonder why God never bothered to mention all of this important stuff to his "chosen people."