Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Huginn · 04-24-2002, 08:16 AM

I read with great amusement in my local newspaper a letter about evolution and creation. Creationists are rarer here but no less vocal. The guy was so clueless he makes the regular creationists here look like geniuses. I'm afraid I can't post a copy of his letter as they don't have a copy online and I'm too lazy to type it out.

Anyway, I decided to respond. If anyone has any comments, criticisms, or suggestions I would be grateful to hear them before I send off my letter.

Quote:

I have just finished reading Russell Goulding’s letter on the subject of evolution and after I stopped laughing I felt compelled to respond.

In the dictionary Mr Goulding will find that ‘theory’ also means “A set of ideas formulated (by reasoning from known facts) to explain something”. So when scientists refer to the theory of evolution they are referring to the ‘set of ideas’ that explain such facts as; the diversity of life of on Earth, predator/prey relationships, parasites, genetic similarity between species, physiological similarity between species and so on. The theory has changed little since Darwin first described it. It has simply become a more detailed account.

Creationism on the other hand is not a theory. It is a dogma of the Christian religion (though it is worth pointing out that many Christians have no problems with evolution). It is based not upon facts but upon the literal interpretation of a book that has probably lost a great deal in translation from its original language. If we are to teach creationism in schools then might I suggest that we also teach that the Muslim creation story and the Hindu creation story, but not in science classes. Teach them in RE classes because they are important to know in order to understand different cultures and our own heritage but they will tell us little about the reality of where we and other animals came from.

It is also worth pointing out that Isaac Newton was a creationist because at the time there was no alternative explanation. Isaac Newton died about eighty years before Charles Darwin was even born! I’m sure that given the evidence available today Newton would concede that Evolution was the best explanation for the diversity of life. Kepler also pre-dates Darwin.

Goulding then goes on to attack atheism. I find this rather odd, as the subject is evolution, not atheism. Evolution is a theory to help us understand the world not a plot by Satan to turn people away from God. As I stated before there are many Christians who have no problems with the theory of evolution.

Goulding claims that atheism is ‘moral folly’ and is responsible for a ‘breakdown in family values and morality’. I wonder, when was this golden age of family values and morality that he feels we have lost?

Belief in a god is certainly no guarantee of moral behaviour as is demonstrated by the current abuse scandal in the Catholic Church in America, September 11th, the troubles in Israel and the troubles in Northern Ireland.

My point here is that Evolution and Creationism are not competing theories based on the same facts. Creationism ignores the facts and fails to help us understand the life on this planet. It also contradicts not only evolution but also cosmology, astronomy, geology and physics. Are we to teach school children creationism along side each of these subjects? Are we to teach creationism to Hindu children, Muslim children and atheist children?

We must search for the truth with honesty and an open mind. Falsehoods are more damaging than the truth, whatever it may be.

Nick Loven

Tell me what you think.

Godless Dave · 04-24-2002, 08:18 AM

very nice

Peez · 04-24-2002, 08:40 AM

Nice job! I would only offer one suggestion: you state that:

Quote:

Creationism on the other hand is not a theory. It is a dogma of the Christian religion (though it is worth pointing out that many Christians have no problems with evolution).

As you point out later on in the letter, there are many different flavours of creationism, not all Christian. On the other hand, scientists who are Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc. all study the same theory of evolution.

Peez

Huginn · 04-24-2002, 08:47 AM

Excellent point Peez. I'll just go add that.

MrDarwin · 04-24-2002, 08:51 AM

You might point out that, while creationism (assuming the young-earth variety) is not a theory, it does make several specific claims that can be and have been tested, and found to be false. Among these are an age of the earth anything less than several billions of years old, whether humans and dinosaurs have ever co-existed, etc.

Dr. Jagan Mohan · 04-24-2002, 08:54 AM

Have you posted it yet?
I have but one small humble objection.

Quote:

then might I suggest that we also teach that the Muslim creation story and the Hindu creation story

Hinduism has no central 'creation' theory as such.
Hinduism does not teach 'Creation Ex Nihilo' since it is considers creation out of 'nothing' philosophically and logical impossible.

In Hinduism, this Universe existed always.
Meaning it had no beginning, nor has a End.
Althought it existed always, it was not the same as it is now, nor is this universe permanent.

That is to say, Energy and Matter are neither created nor destroyed. Energy and Matter only transform from one state to another. The Universe is continously created, maintained and destroyed (not totally, but withdrawn into a 'pre-big-bang' state of potential existence) only to create another.

Therefore, in short, Hinduism has NO creation theories or dogmas. The Universe exists inside the 'body' of God and exists as an extension and MANIFESTATION of God's Creative Powers.

Well, while the six day Christian and Islamic creation stories cannot be discussed in a Science class, Hindu Theory of Origin of the Universe is atleast philosophical and is not Dogmatic..

And not to mention, Hinduism talks of Evolution some 750 years before Jesus Christ in the Upanishads. Evolution is a CARDINAL teaching of Hinduism.

Dr.GH · 04-24-2002, 09:21 AM

A good effort. I would point out that the Muslim creation story is the same as the Jewish, and Christian. They are in fact all based on the Genesis 1 and 2 stories. The Koran allows much more interpretive latitude as to the time frames involved however, and this is perhaps one reason we see fewer Islamic creationists.

Also, editors are creatures of habit. Look at the letters they publish and try to limit your word count to their average (shorter the better). In view of that I would drop the atheism
comments, even though they make a good point. So, as your editor I suggest that you drop the following:

Quote:

Goulding then goes on to attack atheism. I find this rather odd, as the subject is evolution, not atheism. Evolution is a theory to help us understand the world not a plot by Satan to turn people away from God. As I stated before there are many Christians who have no problems with the theory of evolution.

Goulding claims that atheism is "moral folly" and is responsible for a "breakdown in family values and morality." I wonder, when was this golden age of family values and morality that he feels we have lost?

Belief in a god is certainly no guarantee of moral behaviour (sp. behavior) as is demonstrated by the current abuse scandal in the Catholic Church in America, September 11th, the troubles in Israel and the troubles in Northern Ireland.

Good luck. Gary

[ April 24, 2002: Message edited by: Dr.GH ]</p>

Voodoo Child · 04-24-2002, 09:26 AM

Nice letter

Quote:

Goulding then goes on to attack atheism. I find this rather odd, as the subject is evolution, not atheism. Evolution is a theory to help us understand the world not a plot by Satan to turn people away from God.

It is the great chain o' Satan that exists in the demented minds of such people.

Premise 1: Evolution naturally entails atheism
Premise 2: Atheism necessarily leads to immorality

therefore

evolution results in immmorality, moral decay, pedophilia, ads about "world's largest casino" and "amazing xcam" blah, blah, blah.

The remarkable thing is that explaining why premise one or two is false makes absolutely no difference. They just look puzzled for a second and then restate premise 1 and premise 2 more loudly.

MrDarwin · 04-24-2002, 09:26 AM

Dr. GH is absolutely right, edit your letter down or they will do it for you--and who knows what they'll cut, or choose to keep. I would suggest stating simply that there is nothing about evolution that denies the existence of god(s), and that evolution is accepted by many Christians and major Christian denominations.

Huginn · 04-24-2002, 10:00 AM

Thanks for the help everyone. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />
I shall make some alterations and post the newly edited version here in a couple of hours. Not only have you helped me improve my letter but I have also learned some interesting things.
Once again, thank you!

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04-24-2002, 08:18 AM	#2
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	very nice

04-24-2002, 08:47 AM	#4
Huginn Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Lincoln, England Posts: 1,499	Excellent point Peez. I'll just go add that.

04-24-2002, 08:51 AM	#5
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	You might point out that, while creationism (assuming the young-earth variety) is not a theory, it does make several specific claims that can be and have been tested, and found to be false. Among these are an age of the earth anything less than several billions of years old, whether humans and dinosaurs have ever co-existed, etc.

04-24-2002, 09:26 AM	#9
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	Dr. GH is absolutely right, edit your letter down or they will do it for you--and who knows what they'll cut, or choose to keep. I would suggest stating simply that there is nothing about evolution that denies the existence of god(s), and that evolution is accepted by many Christians and major Christian denominations.

04-24-2002, 10:00 AM	#10
Huginn Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Lincoln, England Posts: 1,499	Thanks for the help everyone. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> I shall make some alterations and post the newly edited version here in a couple of hours. Not only have you helped me improve my letter but I have also learned some interesting things. Once again, thank you!

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