winstonjen

I don't think it was a very big sacrifice. To Jesus, it would be like travelling economy class on a plane rather than first class. He KNEW that he would come back to life, and he KNEW how long the pain would last - which would make it much easier to endure.
Also, isn't it a bit absurd for God to sacrifice himself TO himself, in the form of Jesus? Also, a sacrifice implies that you're not going to get it back, but Jesus DID get his life back, so how is that a sacrifice?

[ November 26, 2002: Message edited by: winstonjen ]</p>

worldling

Very true, winston. For an infinite and omnipotent god to spend 30 years living, 3 hours dying, and 3 days dead, is a sacrifice so infinitessimal as to be virtually non-existent. (If it were claimed that Christ was suffering an eternity in hell for our sins, the equation might just balance out).

But that's not the only problem with the crucifixion story:
- one cannot, logically, repay a debt to oneself. You can cancel it, but you can't repay it - where would the payment come from? Yourself. If you borrowed a tenner off me and I decided that I liked you so much that you didn't have to repay me, I would just cancel the debt. I wouldn't withdraw a tenner from my account and then pay it back in again, saying behold I am repaying the debt you owe me. That would be absurd.
- xians try to overcome this problem by saying god became man in order to repay man's debt. But this is logically impossible too. He cannot be both man and god, both mortal and immortal. That's an illogicality of the A=not A variety.

These problems with the crucifixion story render any debates about the historicity of the gospels redundant. If the story itself is so patently preposterous apologists can argue till they are blue in the face about Jesus being as historical as Alexander etc etc - that's not going to make the least bit difference to its essential absurdity.

winstonjen

I think that claim might not be enough - how can one person undergo the suffering that billions of others are? It doesn't make sense to me.

Zadok001

If Christ were in Hell, his suffering would be infinite. Due to the fact that the number of other people in Hell would always be rational, we can say that Christ's torture is enough to cover all the sins of the world.

(i.e., there are a finite number of people in Hell, one of which is Christ. If I recall my math correctly, the quanitative value of Christs torture for the rest of eternity is equal to the same value of the same torture being applied to any finite number of people. It becomes less when the number of other people becomes infinite, which is never will, in theory.)

CX

It is pointless to try and apply reason to a theological issue. The atonement is necessary to explain how the Jewish messiah ended up getting executed by occupying forces. That isn't the way the story was supposed to go. Personally I think the concept of the atonement is one of the most creative pieces of theological tap dancing ever.

SinEater

Winstonjen,

I have posted this before to "Chains", a theist, and received no reply.

Concerning the supposed sacrifice of Jesus:

1. Jesus was almost certainly a myth. No life = No crucifixion = No sacrifice.

2. In the possible, although unlikely, scenario that there was a historical Jesus even vaguely resembling the biblical one, the actual life and death of that man is lost to us historically, making any claims at all about his life and death dubious and speculative, at best.

3. Even assuming, purely for the sake of discussion, that the gospel accounts are reasonably historically accurate, I think describing a death of this type as "he suffered one of the most painful forms of capital punishment ever devised by man." to be questionable at best. Being skinned alive with oyster shells over a period of days and then having your organs pulled from your body and roasted over a fire in full view is probably worse. (Sorry for the gore. This is documented among Eastern Woodland intertribal warfare in North America). Then there are the Aztecs. Skinning alive victims and/or splitting them open with obsidian knives to offer their still-beating hearts to Huitzilopochli is a pretty agonizing and horrific way to shuffle off this mortal coil as well. Just so folks won't think I'm picking on Indigenous Native American cultures, the Europeans are at least as bad, if not worse. The tortures inspired by the Malleus Maleficarum and the Holy Inquisition would make George Romero puke in his soup. These tortures and executions took place over DAYS as a public, and well-attended, spectacle. The cherry on top is of course, burning the heretic (or Jew, or "witch", or Atheist) alive. I'll take crucifixion any day of the week. The list goes on without end.

4. Even assuming, purely for the sake of discussion, that the Theological constructs of the NT are also true, what kind of a "sacrifice" is it, really? Jesus was supposedly GOD ALMIGHTY. Infinite, Omnimax, perfect. 33.3 years as a human schlub like the rest of us, a few days of torture and pain, three days in the grave and then back to GODHOOD. Let's see, an infinity of Paradise and Perfection, a bit of discomfort, followed by an infinity of Paradise and Perfection. Any finite value divided by infinity being effectively zero, where is the "sacrifice"? What did "god" GIVE UP? He is still Omnimax GOD forever and ever, right? There is NO NET CHANGE. AT ALL.

5. We, puppets upon his demented stage, live our tiny finite lives, committing "sins" great and small, but only a finite amount, of course. Then we burn in eternal hellfire, the WORST PUNISHMENT ever conceived by man or god, forever and ever and ever. Sounds like a greater punishment than the "son of god" supposedly received on the cross, don't you think? In comparison, what Jesus got was a mildly infected hangnail, or stubbed toe.

This is the fundamental core of Christian Theology, and why, to any rationally thinking person, it is an enormous pile of steaming tripe; an inhuman, nay, antihuman, cesspool of moral bankruptcy.

And you can put THAT in your pipe and smoke it.

SinEater

diana

xians try to overcome this problem by saying god became man in order to repay man's debt.

winstonjen,

Yes. The whole biblical analogy between justice and "paying debts" is flawed, as well. IF you can buy the idea that we're all sinful due to the unwitting error of a forebear--the whole Fruit of the TOKOGAE thing presupposes a knowledge of good and evil and an understanding of what is meant by "death," which according to the story, A&E didn't have--it's still utterly ridiculous to suggest than a person can commit a crime and justice has been served if someone else accepts his punishment, which the "paying our debt" analogy posits.

The whole thing is so utterly absurd, my only problem with arguing it with a believer is trying to decide where to start pointing out the flaws.

d

thebeave

One thing that makes the whole "Jesus dying on the cross for my sins" confusing for me is:

How is the act of Jesus dying on the cross (or dying in any manner) in any way related to my "sins" as a man living in 2002? I see no cause and effect relationship here. It's just as non-sequitor as saying "Jesus baked banana bread for my sins" or "Jesus threw a rock in a pond for my sins". So, I shoplifted a box of Jujubee candies when I was 9 years old. Somehow Jesus dying 2000 years ago is related to this action? WTF??

Tom Sawyer

thebeave,

Yes, it's all your fault. I hope you're happy about all the trouble you've caused.

I've always thought that the whole dying on the cross thing was a bit silly. Even when I was a kid I didn't get it and figured this Jesus guy was a pretty lame-assed God to let people do that to him. The whole idea of sacrificing himself to himself to convince him to forgive the rest of us for some girl breaking some wierd arbitrary rule about not eating fruit always seemed fairly dumb. I didn't have a religious upbringing, so no one ever explained to me how it made any sense.

Xians are pretty impressed with the guy for all the trouble he went through, though.

Biff the unclean

I've still never figured out how late Friday afternoon to just before dawn on Sunday adds up to three days and nights.