Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ediacaran · 01-29-2002, 03:24 PM

What are your recommendations for the most informative texts regarding the design argument for the existence of God? I already have The Existence of God by Richard Swinburne that has a chapter on the teleological argument from a pro-theological POV. I'd prefer suggestions that take a more philosophical approach rather than a scientific one, e.g. The Blind Watchmaker by Dawkins. Thanks in advance.

Francois Tremblay · 01-29-2002, 03:47 PM

I would doubt anyone has written a philosophical book about the design argument (I never heard of any, anyway). It is the kind of argument that demands evidence, not just affirmation.

It is not at all obvious that there *is* design in the universe, let alone that a god (as opposed to any other creative agent) has made it, and therefore there is nothing for us to refute until some kind of evidence (scientific or otherwise) is proposed.

Clutch · 01-29-2002, 04:25 PM

Intelligent Design Creationism and Its Critics: Philosophical, Theological,
and Scientific Perspectives, Robert T. Pennock, ed. (MIT Press, 2001)

Haven't read it, only saw the press release. Pennock is a lucid and clear sceptic of ID, judging from his previous book Tower of Babel, but he seems to have assembled lots of influential writers from all sides. If it does what it says in the title, it should be what you're looking for.

Ender · 01-29-2002, 10:20 PM

what the hell? Nobody has mentioned the single <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140445366/qid=1012375139/sr=2-3/ref=sr_2_15_3/104-4586040-4982340" target="_blank">greatest sustained philosophical critique of the design argument</a> ever written in western literature? Something is wrong with you guys. :-)

~WiGGiN~

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Ender the Theothanatologist ]

Plump-DJ · 01-30-2002, 08:36 AM

Might seem unusual, but try Hugh Ross's "Creator And the Cosmos', Third Edition. This is basically the scientific argument (or Design Argument) for God's existence in a nutshell.

Haven't read it myself.. but he is the king of Sci-Apologetics, or so i've heard.

One more point if i may.

Quote:

and therefore there is nothing for us to refute until some kind of evidence (scientific or otherwise) is proposed.

Do the good ol' Anthropic Coincidences count as evidence for God's existence?

[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Orbital ]

Francois Tremblay · 01-30-2002, 08:47 AM

Orbital, I don't think they do. Victor Stenger did some work on "possible universes" and it seems the constants are not so tight after all.

Furthermore, a coincidence (such as a universe fine-tuned for our existence) does not necessarily imply design. To show design, one must demonstrate that the association of a product with a designer is reasonable, just like we'd do in real life. In this all design arguments fail utterly. As I said, burden of proof (^_^)

[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Franc28 ]

Theophage · 01-30-2002, 09:09 AM

Remember that the point of the anthropic principle is that of course we would see the universe as having life sustaining properties. If it didn't we wouldn't be here discussing it.

And as an aside, its not known how the universal constants got their values, so there is also no reason to assume that they could have any other values. Perhaps what we got is all that is possible...

Francois Tremblay · 01-30-2002, 11:07 AM

Thank you Theophage, I did forget that part. We have no idea what is the effective range of these constants. There are just too many holes in that old anthropic argument to go anywhere.

The only way I see for theists to show design would be to prove that a god exists in the first place, thus more or less defeating the whole point.

[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Franc28 ]

Dr. Retard · 01-31-2002, 08:03 PM

Three best books concerning the design argument I know of (that I can think of offhand):

Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion by David Hume, of course.

The Existence of God by Wallace Matson. This is about all the different arguments pro and con, but the section on design is quite good.

Hume's Philosophy of Religion by J C A Gaskin. This has a good response to Swinburne's critique of Hume. Also it uses an example from Kubrick's 2001 to attack the design argument, ironically for those familiar with <a href="http://www.2001principle.net/" target="_blank">The 2001 Principle</a>.

And John Leslie's Universes is a really well-written, nicely-argued, if crazy, book on the fine-tuning argument.

[edited for UBB stupidity]

[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Dr. Retard ]

A3 · 02-27-2002, 08:30 AM

Dear ediacaran,

Talking about design, I can send you an attachment (a book) which tell you just about anything you ever wanted to know about the human mind. It is called "The Spiritual World." This is about the design of our world and the next (which is right now too). Send me an email and I'll send you the book, no strings attached, take it or leave it etc. (no salesman will call

But it is 1.6 MB so that takes me 20 min. with my connection.
Regards
A3The Spiritual World

[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: A3 ]

01-29-2002, 03:24 PM	#1
ediacaran Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 38	Books on the Design Argument What are your recommendations for the most informative texts regarding the design argument for the existence of God? I already have The Existence of God by Richard Swinburne that has a chapter on the teleological argument from a pro-theological POV. I'd prefer suggestions that take a more philosophical approach rather than a scientific one, e.g. The Blind Watchmaker by Dawkins. Thanks in advance.

01-29-2002, 10:20 PM	#4
Ender Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Lusitania Colony Posts: 658	what the hell? Nobody has mentioned the single <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140445366/qid=1012375139/sr=2-3/ref=sr_2_15_3/104-4586040-4982340" target="_blank">greatest sustained philosophical critique of the design argument</a> ever written in western literature? Something is wrong with you guys. :-) ~WiGGiN~ [ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Ender the Theothanatologist ]</p>

01-30-2002, 08:47 AM	#6
Francois Tremblay Banned Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Montreal, QC Canada Posts: 876	Orbital, I don't think they do. Victor Stenger did some work on "possible universes" and it seems the constants are not so tight after all. Furthermore, a coincidence (such as a universe fine-tuned for our existence) does not necessarily imply design. To show design, one must demonstrate that the association of a product with a designer is reasonable, just like we'd do in real life. In this all design arguments fail utterly. As I said, burden of proof (^_^) [ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Franc28 ]</p>

01-30-2002, 11:07 AM	#8
Francois Tremblay Banned Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Montreal, QC Canada Posts: 876	Thank you Theophage, I did forget that part. We have no idea what is the effective range of these constants. There are just too many holes in that old anthropic argument to go anywhere. The only way I see for theists to show design would be to prove that a god exists in the first place, thus more or less defeating the whole point. [ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Franc28 ]</p>

01-31-2002, 08:03 PM	#9
Dr. Retard Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA Posts: 735	Three best books concerning the design argument I know of (that I can think of offhand): Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion by David Hume, of course. The Existence of God by Wallace Matson. This is about all the different arguments pro and con, but the section on design is quite good. Hume's Philosophy of Religion by J C A Gaskin. This has a good response to Swinburne's critique of Hume. Also it uses an example from Kubrick's 2001 to attack the design argument, ironically for those familiar with <a href="http://www.2001principle.net/" target="_blank">The 2001 Principle</a>. And John Leslie's Universes is a really well-written, nicely-argued, if crazy, book on the fine-tuning argument. [edited for UBB stupidity] [ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Dr. Retard ]</p>

01-29-2002, 03:47 PM	#2
Francois Tremblay Banned Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Montreal, QC Canada Posts: 876	I would doubt anyone has written a philosophical book about the design argument (I never heard of any, anyway). It is the kind of argument that demands evidence, not just affirmation. It is not at all obvious that there is design in the universe, let alone that a god (as opposed to any other creative agent) has made it, and therefore there is nothing for us to refute until some kind of evidence (scientific or otherwise) is proposed.

01-29-2002, 04:25 PM	#3
Clutch Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 3,751	Intelligent Design Creationism and Its Critics: Philosophical, Theological, and Scientific Perspectives, Robert T. Pennock, ed. (MIT Press, 2001) Haven't read it, only saw the press release. Pennock is a lucid and clear sceptic of ID, judging from his previous book Tower of Babel, but he seems to have assembled lots of influential writers from all sides. If it does what it says in the title, it should be what you're looking for.

01-30-2002, 09:09 AM	#7
Theophage Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Posts: 966	Remember that the point of the anthropic principle is that of course we would see the universe as having life sustaining properties. If it didn't we wouldn't be here discussing it. And as an aside, its not known how the universal constants got their values, so there is also no reason to assume that they could have any other values. Perhaps what we got is all that is possible...

02-27-2002, 08:30 AM	#10
A3 Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Toronto Canada Posts: 166	Dear ediacaran, Talking about design, I can send you an attachment (a book) which tell you just about anything you ever wanted to know about the human mind. It is called "The Spiritual World." This is about the design of our world and the next (which is right now too). Send me an email and I'll send you the book, no strings attached, take it or leave it etc. (no salesman will call But it is 1.6 MB so that takes me 20 min. with my connection. Regards A3The Spiritual World [ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: A3 ]</p>

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