Family Man

When I first found the predecessor to this board several years ago, I saw a story that a theist put forth as one of the reasons he believed. It went something like this. Two skiiers were at the top of the slope, one a Christian and the other a skeptic. It had snowed the night before and the conditions were pristine. The skeptic questioned why the Christian believed. The Christian replied "Look around you" and pointed at the slope. The skeptic (apparently seeing the light) just smiled.

One of the common assertions put forth by believers is that their personal experience leads them to believe in God. It can be seen in religious writing all the time where common ordinary events are turned into "evidence". Another infidel on this board received some spam that went in part like this:

Quote:

Have you ever been thinking about somebody that you haven't seen in a long time and then next thing you know you see them or receive a phone call from them? THAT'S GOD.

Quote:

Have you ever received something wonderful that you didn't even ask for, like money in the mail, a debt that had mysteriously been cleared, or a coupon to a department store where you had just seen something you wanted, but couldn't afford? THAT'S GOD.

So what's the problem with this? It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you have the mindset that God intervenes in minor, harmless ways, then of course you're going to see things that happen as evidence that there is a God. Nothing in these stories require a god -- in fact, these people probably have wished for something and not gotten it, or thought of someone but never heard from them again. But it doesn't matter because they're counting the hits and ignoring the misses. Something good happens to you, THAT'S GOD -- because you expect to find god, not because there is a god to find.

Simply put, personal experience is the worst possible evidence.

Taffer

In other words, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

These little stories appear to be the sole main argument of Christians around here. They aren't very up-to-date on the Evolution/Creation debate (and I can't blame them since, a short while ago, neither was I), so they generally resort to the miraculous salvation of their friend's brother's mother's aunt's sister-in-law with stories ranging from amusing to ludicrous.

That never happens to me! Clear evidence that I've been abandoned by Him, I suppose.

Oxymoron

One of my pet peeves is when believers (of Jebus, karma or whatever) cite I observe the world and think about it as their means of ascertaining the truth of what they believe.

Defiant Heretic

Have you ever really needed to catch a bus, but you arrive just as it’s pulling away? THAT’S GOD.

Have you ever been carrying a handful of groceries (Because you had to walk after missing the bus), and the bag breaks halfway to your destination? THAT’S GOD.

Have you ever slipped on a patch of ice you didn’t see, and smacked your forehead against solid concrete? THAT’S GOD.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that if you only apply certain experiences to God’s will, it is not an accurate reflection of reality. If little things like these do indeed prove that there is a god, it’s not a very nice god. Certainly not one who’s worthy of worship. (So they probably would be justified in assuming it’s Yahweh.)


Actually, this exact thing has happened to me. The friend calls up, and states “Hello, this is GOD.”

I have some strange friends.

luvluv

Those are some big words, Family Man.

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Family Man

Yes, but it is also a powerful argument against a very common theistic position.

Ojuice5001

Family Man,

It is generally not good evidence for those who find supernaturalism implausible. But someone finds supernaturalism plausible, it is good evidence as far as they're concerned. Your post doesn't address the question of whether someone should find supernaturalism plausible, so it can't estalish more than the proposition:

It is foolish to expect convinced atheists to look at specific examples of directed chance, and change their minds.

True if that's all you were saying, false if you expect theists to see the issue your way.

luvluv

Not in my experience. My "religious experiences" are generally justified by real world occurances.

I actually met a woman I had very serious intentions of marrying (and still may, at some point) by virtue of what you might call a religious experience. I was visiting an office intending to have lunch with a friend, but she was out of the office on an errand. I was told by one of her co-workers that she would not be back for nearly half an hour, but that I could wait if I wanted to. Now, I was very hungry and had every intention of getting a rain check, but I got a very, very strong impression that said, for lack of a better word "DO. NOT. LEAVE."

So I stayed. A few momments later, the seceratary asked me if I would like to wait in my friends office, so I said sure. Well, my friend just happened to share her office with a very attractive, very spiritual young lady. We hit it off right away and ended up starting a (brief) relationship. She has since moved, and things are currently up in the air, but I have high hopes.

This is just one example, but this sort of thing happens to me all the time. A lot of the power of the religious argument comes from their predictions made in the real world. Very often I feel God telling me not to do something I very much want to do, or vice versa, generally for reasons I can't explain. When I obey what I believe to be His voice, I more often than not experience incredible occurances which would not have otherwise occured.

Socrates himself, in his Apology, mentioned the presence of this "familiar sign" which warned him of what to do and what not to do. I feel this is a common religious experience, and in all honesty, I think most people have had experiences like this. I think these kinds of experiences do have some argumentative force. I don't think they are meant to convince anyone but the person who has actually experienced them, however. I think it is more of a justification for personal faith than it is an argument for others to adopt that faith. It's what Evangelicals call "confirmation".

The above event, actually, is far from isolated. It's a fairly common occurance and these messages from "a familiar sign" have been present in every major life change in my post-Christian life.

FWIW...

Ojuice5001

Defiant Heretic,

I don't discriminate among chance events. No matter whether they are good, bad, or neutral for me, I assume all are the work of the gods. Looking at the preponderance of chance events in my life is what gave me the idea that I am ruled by a deity of the past; Postverta often does things for my good, but other times she is acting solely for the sake of promoting the past. And if an event doesn't seem like Postverta's work at all, I see nothing wrong with attributing it to another deity.

Certain objections against theism in general apply equally to me. Others, like this one, I have worked hard to eradicate from my belief system.

Ojuice5001, the polytheist who defies Christianity and atheism

Clutch

I recommend Chs 2 and 3 from Thomas Gilovich's wonderful book, How We Know What Isn't So. He describes and explains the sort of over-interpretation of chance events that many Christians indulge in. Gilovich diagnoses this tendency in terms of generally positive but "spoof-able" pattern-detection mechanisms of perception and cognition.

The later chapters on motivated inference ("wishful thinking") are excellent as well.