Amos

Not if you put it that way, Starboy, but the net effect of understanding the mind of God is to have no doubt about it, obviously, and without doubt all faith is gone because faith has found understanding in knowledge, ie. knowledge frees. So the goal of Catholic seekers is not just to read about (because that will increase both faith and doubt), but it is to find the difference between faith and doubt in the consolidation of their life with the divine.

So when faith finds understanding all doubt will be gone and that is what the Thomas thing was all about.

But look what happens next (Jn.21:1-11), and don't forget that this was after resurrection. They were fishing and both Peter and Thomas were there still in the 'no-faith/no-doubt' equalibrium which is signified by Peter being naked, to be sure. After fishing all night on the left side of the boat where they did not catch anything (because of the 'empty' faith), Jesus told them to cast their nets on the other side where they soon hauled in big loads of big fish and they were easy to catch, (right side of the brain because faith and doubt can only exist on the left side). Upon seeing this Peter threw on some clothes to signify his renewed faith and dove in head-first. From there he began to built the Church on revelation and became the inspired Church that is Infallible . . . wherefore the gates of hell (reason) will not prevail against it.

[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

Starboy

Amos, your metaphorical explanation can be interpreted in many ways. What are you trying to say? When Peter and Thomas started appealing to the faith and doubt of people that they were able to convert them? I’m not clear as to what the metaphorical meaning of Peter putting on clothes and diving in headfirst. Are you trying to say that he became a convert? Or do the clothes symbolize the church of Peter and his diving into the water signifies that he had entered the world of faith and doubt?

Starboy

[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

Amos

Read it again, I send the post because I was getting an incoming call and was not really finished.

I don't think appealing to faith has anyhting to do with this. That is fundy thinking and we are not evangelizing here nor was the gospel there.

Starboy

Sorry about that Amos. It was always my understanding that when the apostles went fishing it was for converts. So what is the significance of the fish they are catching? Why are they trying to catch them and what do they intend to do with them? Why is it so important that they catch anything? Or is catching fish a metaphor for acquiring further understanding? If so, what is it an understanding of?

Amos

This fishing trip was to show that the Catholic Church would be built on inspiration and not just some fancy brain wave.

It begins with the genealogy of "Jesus back to Adam to God" , is followed by the insight of Peter into the second nature of Jesus where Jesus said to Peter "get thee behind me satan" and so called Judaism the work of satan (left brain), then it goes on the the removal of faith and doubt and on to the fishing trip on the right side of the brain to show that is an inspired religion.

If you follow that through to the next page you will see Jesus ask Peter "do you love me" three times and the third time it is "do you agape me" (instead of just love me) and then Jesus said: if that is the case you can go and "feed my sheep" (preach the gospel). After this he said while showing his wounds "as the father has send me so I am sending you" to indicate that unless you bear the stigmata don't go preach the gospel because you will be a problem to the Church (because She is inspired).

[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

Starboy

So Amos, you are saying that the fish represented inspiration, so that when Peter dove in, it was into the waters that produce inspiration, the inspiration that resulted in the church?

I have seen you post that second explanation on several occasions but I cannot fathom it. The thing I don’t understand is that the Peter of the last supper is not the person that founded the church. What's up with that? Also what is the significance of showing the genealogy of Jesus back to Adam and then to god? Don’t Christians believe that we are all descendants of Adam? Why would that make Jesus any more special than anyone else? All religions claim to be inspired in one way or another. What is the significance of Christianity being an inspired religion?

[edited to get the names right]

[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

Amos

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I think it is the same Peter and if they changed his name to Simon Peter that was probably done to indicate the change of his perspective (you have to understand that the entire event is written from a metaphysical perspective and the physical elements that surround the story was to give it religious direction--which was the primary reason for writing it).

In Matthew it shows a recorded genealogy. Catholicism was taken out of the root of David to Jesus and back to God in omniscient Luke to indicate that we are free from Judaism and owe nothing to the Jews. That is how we became grafted branches (whether they like this or not) and can rightfully use the OT when needed.

It really is impossible to know what Christians believe but Catholics hold that we are created in the image of God and have a second nature that is much like the nature of Adam and is wherein we find our inclination to sin (also called Adamic sin or fallen nature or original sin).

In Christendom only Catholicism is inspired (leaving Judism aside for now). Christianity is not a religion but is a state of being Christ-ian. So a 'Christian religion' is definatly not inspired.

Starboy

Amos, where does Paul/Saul fit into all this?

Amos

I don't really know much about Paul but it would not surprise me if Paul wrote the Gospels. If he did not he would be the first real life example of the Gosples in 'action' in that he testified on behalf of Jesus. If Paul writes that was not a contemporary of Jesus we must accept that and just say that he used the Gospels to further the cause of the Church (or the Church used Paul).

It is actually a nice way to bring the life of Jesus home to the Church because in a sense we are all like Paul in that we are profiteers and persecutors of religion to the same extent as we place our personal gain above anything else. This same parallel is found between Paul the persecutor and Jonah who was running away from God.

Starboy

Thank you Amos for answering my questions. I can't say as I understand everything you have to say but you do have an interesting point of view.

Starboy