azazel

Given the whole "morality doesn't matter" way of looking at things. Why bother if TRUE separation of church and state is achieved peacefully or not? Because that's what the theists do? Well, it works.
No matter what happens the majority of the world will be made of ignorants/morons (See world statistics of athiests, never in world history has more than 10% of the world been atheist, mind you atheist does not equal "no religion"). "One must speak foolishly to the common people if one must be believed". Since the whole "fantastic worlds" bit has been done to death by theists. We ought to take up a variant of Roman Catholic Expansion Doctrine, the "Cross and Sword". 'cept we ought to do "Burning Cross and Sword". We apply the tactics used by the Church to stamp out native religions; adaptation( assimilation of local beliefs and customs to suit the doctrine of the cause), eradication (of texts, images, and artifacts), and falsification (re-writing history for the latter generations. Hey, it's been done since ancient China. It's not like our history books are virgin and undefiled. A few changes would benefit the world [from my POV anyway]). If any of you guys have read Arthur C. Clarke's "Songs from Distant Earth" (Earth blows up. And the babies/colonists launched from escape pods cared for by robots are predictably given all the knowledge of Earth, with one exception, any work of literature or art pertaining to god or any religion was not included in the hopes of protecting new Humanity from the horrors of god and religion. If what we believe is correct, a society with a fully-developed sense of science with no contact with the concept of "god' will merely treat unexplained phenomena as what it simply is. They would probably go about their lives assuming those questions will be answered at a later date. Utopia is impossible. Science as our "religion" is still a lesser evil. Right? I'm ranting, so I'm not sure if this still belongs in this forum.

(Note to Admins: Sorry, but if it's misplaced. Please put where it belongs. [Elswhere, perhaps?]

azazel

Oops, I forgot. It's sort of like "The holocaust can be denied, if there were nobody left to talk about it". Sorry if I offend anyone with that analogy. I mean, there can be no pope without priest or clergy, right?
No evidence, No crime. "A lie told by many becomes truth". Screw morality. It's based on Theistic morality, no matter what anybody says. (because I'm a mean person, who watched a kid starve to death because it was there on the sidewalk and I've never seen death up close).

Jewel

I, personally, would not be able to keep my integrity to stoop to the level of the revisionists to achieve true seperation-- even if it worked (which I'm not sure it would). The ends do not always justify the means.

I think we need to educate the people. Show them that it is in their best interests to keep church and state seperate. Religion benefits greatly when it is left alone. And I do not care if other people believe in god or are religious. It's when they want to force their beliefs on me that I get offended.

azazel

Why doesn't the end justify the means?

Jewel

[Moderator hat on]

azazel,

Your analogy implies the use of violence to stamp out religion. Please refrain from advocating violence. If that was not your intention I would suggest you elaborate a bit more to show what you did intend.

Thank you,
Jewel
Moderator CSS&SA

[Moderator hat off]

Jewel

Because forcing people to not be religious is just as wrong as forcing people to be religious.

In this country the idividual's right to be religious is just as important as another's right to not be religious. I have no desire to dictate what another person is allowed to believe and in fact I would fight just as hard for a theist's right to follow the religion they choose as I do for my right to not be religious.

-Jewel

Shake

Well put! Right up the ol', "I don't agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it" alley.

Alonzo Fyfe

Besides, it is a bit strange. You can hold a gun to somebody's head and say, "repeat after me," and he will. But will he believe what you have him say? Will he understand that which you demand that he believe?

None of that can be accomplished with a gun.

This reflects back on Thomas Jefferson's observation that to try to force such beliefs on a population makes half of them hypocrites and the other half fools.

winterwooskie

i don't think strong-arming people into believing what you believe in, is valid. part of the reason people dislike religion is because they used to do that in the past and now are only able to proselytize, since there is not such a strong connection with church and state anyway. evolution will take its course and it will be less and less for them to get people into their club. and also believing in a religion is not bad. it's only when they exploit the power that they have, that is wrong. most religious people are not even religious anymore anyway since it has been so watered down to be a joke for most people who claim to be religious.

azazel

I supppose you're all right there but think about it. Your western morality ("individual is more important than the group" thing) stops you from realizing it is not a universally accepted right. That's a little problem with "globalization". Just because you've (the 1st world countries) saturated the market with pop culture( why do I still remember the fuckin' GI Joe theme song?!), Jesus Christ (the harvenger of global morality and bourgeois judeo-christianity), and all that "global village" crap. Doesn't mean we actually believe it. Just because you all agree that "strong-arming" is "bad", try and think why you think it's bad( Leftover morality from when you crossed over? the morality of your surroundings? maybe humanism?). Besides, brute force by itself doesn't work. [inappropriate comment deleted] I'll put this topic to rest, it's offended the "civilized peoples of the west". Read Spengler's "Decline of the West".

azazel, please find a different way to illustrate your points. the suggestion of violence in not appropriate. You've been warned. -Jewel