Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 10-15-2007, 01:19 PM

As well as looking at a combination of people making a Jesus, would it be helpful to discuss characters in plays and stories?

We have a huge variation of types to choose.

Hercules, Superman, Batman, Father Xmas, Hamlet, MacBeth, Henry IV, Pickard, Darth Vader, Napoleon.

What are the rules to define someone as really existing, this story is reasonably historically correct, that is made up.

Where would Jesus fit on such a continuum, and is it actually a continuum from history to myth - is a character in a story myth?

And what of supporting choruses and walk on parts in films and plays? Extras?

Are the people crossing a street in a movie say about Kennedy historical?

kennethamy · 10-15-2007, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

As well as looking at a combination of people making a Jesus, would it be helpful to discuss characters in plays and stories?

We have a huge variation of types to choose.

Hercules, Superman, Batman, Father Xmas, Hamlet, MacBeth, Henry IV, Pickard, Darth Vader, Napoleon.

What are the rules to define someone as really existing, this story is reasonably historically correct, that is made up.

Where would Jesus fit on such a continuum, and is it actually a continuum from history to myth - is a character in a story myth?

And what of supporting choruses and walk on parts in films and plays? Extras?

Are the people crossing a street in a movie say about Kennedy historical?

Well, Mickey mouse, nor the tooth fairy, exist. And Abraham Lincoln and Adolf Hitler did exist. Let's start there. The latter exist since they are not fictional, and there is an Abraham Lincoln or Adolf Hitler whether or not anyone believes (or hopes, or wants there to be one). Their existence does not depend on whether there are minds (except, of course, their own).

Supporting choruses consist of people, and, of course, they exist. The people they play, do not exist.

Character's in stories are fictions, myths are folk-fictions. So all myths are fictional, but not all fictional characters are myths.

Clivedurdle · 10-15-2007, 01:43 PM

So is it actually a fictional Jesus kernel with a huge mythical overlay? And where does legend fit?

Should we be in search of the fictional Jesus?

Hex · 10-15-2007, 02:02 PM

How can you possibly doubt Macbeth?

Look at Macbeth's Castle Unearthed In Inverness Garden? where

Quote:

"We don't know for certain if it was Macbeth's castle but certainly everything points to it, " chairman George Christie declared.

Isn't that good enough?

If it isn't, look at this:

Quote:

Admittedly, clues to the exact spot are few, but tradition and geography clearly dictate that MacBeth's fortress was on Auld Castlehill giving its name to the Inverness town area now known as The Crown. Auldcastle Road itself is another helpful location aid, so too a charter dated 1362 which a prominent Inverness lawyer, John Anderson uncovered much later and quoted to the Society of Antiquarians in a lecture delivered more than 160 years ago.

The charter records a landowner's grant to the Roman Catholic Church of ''lands within the old castle of Inverness''. Those are still known as Diriebught (the poor's lands) which skirts the base of The Crown and formed the perimeter of the MacBeth stronghold.
In his lecture, according to the society's own minutes, Mr Anderson reasoned that MacBeth's castle must have been at the eastern extremity of The Crown hill for good reasons, one being that it afforded the clearest and widest possible views over the surrounding land and sea, essential in those troubled times. Mr Anderson's well argued case appears to have been given scant attention by the historians, perhaps because they considered one Inverness Castle was enough to research.

From here.

How much more clear could it be?

Clivedurdle · 10-15-2007, 02:12 PM

Why do you think i picked Macbeth? :devil1:

But were there three witches saying when shall we meet again?

I had assumed Macbeth is a historical character - what Shakespeare says about him is another matter! He wanted to sell tickets!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raphael_Holinshed

spin · 10-15-2007, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Why do you think i picked Macbeth? :devil1:

But were there three witches saying when shall we meet again?

I had assumed Macbeth is a historical character - what Shakespeare says about him is another matter! He wanted to sell tickets!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raphael_Holinshed

The three witches material wasn't written by Shakespeare! It was apparently added after the success of Thomas Middleton's "The Witch" -- added by Middleton himself. Updated for the audience and all that.

On the subject of myth an ironic statement one may have heard says, "one person's myth is another person's religion." Strictly speaking myth is derived from religious necessity. Legend is derived from local tradition.

Our problem is that the term "myth" has been confused by its use as a metaphor (in a non-religious context to derive an idea of impact) which soon became a cliche and then just another meaning of the term.

I recommend that we are aware of the different usages of the term and stick to the one with a strictly religious content.

spin

kennethamy · 10-15-2007, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Why do you think i picked Macbeth? :devil1:

But were there three witches saying when shall we meet again?

I had assumed Macbeth is a historical character - what Shakespeare says about him is another matter! He wanted to sell tickets!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raphael_Holinshed

Macbeth in the play is not an historical character, however. If I wrote a play about Lincoln, the character in the play would be based on an historical person, but would not be an historical person.

Chili · 10-15-2007, 06:51 PM

Macbeth is a satire against the Church of England and is done very well. Macbeth is a [not so divine] Senecan Tragedy while Coriolanus is a superb Divine Comedy.

Let me give you hint on this: "we've scorched the snake, not killed it. Now we will be subject to the malice of her former tooth" (or something like that).

Clearly, that signifies hell on earth.

mountainman · 10-15-2007, 10:52 PM

Mythical, Historical or What ?

Or What?

Are we having a terminological problem?
Can I assist, or would you rather I refrain?

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Lucretius · 10-16-2007, 04:50 AM

One of the very few things I can ever remember about the historical MacBeth was that he had a step son who was known as Lulach the Fatuous

10-15-2007, 01:19 PM	#1
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Are Macbeth, Hamlet Mythical, Historical or what? As well as looking at a combination of people making a Jesus, would it be helpful to discuss characters in plays and stories? We have a huge variation of types to choose. Hercules, Superman, Batman, Father Xmas, Hamlet, MacBeth, Henry IV, Pickard, Darth Vader, Napoleon. What are the rules to define someone as really existing, this story is reasonably historically correct, that is made up. Where would Jesus fit on such a continuum, and is it actually a continuum from history to myth - is a character in a story myth? And what of supporting choruses and walk on parts in films and plays? Extras? Are the people crossing a street in a movie say about Kennedy historical?

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10-15-2007, 01:43 PM	#3
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	So is it actually a fictional Jesus kernel with a huge mythical overlay? And where does legend fit? Should we be in search of the fictional Jesus?

10-15-2007, 02:12 PM	#5
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Why do you think i picked Macbeth? :devil1: But were there three witches saying when shall we meet again? I had assumed Macbeth is a historical character - what Shakespeare says about him is another matter! He wanted to sell tickets! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raphael_Holinshed

10-15-2007, 06:51 PM	#8
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	Macbeth is a satire against the Church of England and is done very well. Macbeth is a [not so divine] Senecan Tragedy while Coriolanus is a superb Divine Comedy. Let me give you hint on this: "we've scorched the snake, not killed it. Now we will be subject to the malice of her former tooth" (or something like that). Clearly, that signifies hell on earth.

10-15-2007, 10:52 PM	#9
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Mythical, Historical or What ? Or What? Are we having a terminological problem? Can I assist, or would you rather I refrain? Best wishes, Pete Brown

10-16-2007, 04:50 AM	#10
Lucretius Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: . Posts: 1,014	One of the very few things I can ever remember about the historical MacBeth was that he had a step son who was known as Lulach the Fatuous

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