WagesofSin

Some time ago I heard that women were not allowed to speak in church and were not considered to have a soul until the Council of Trent. I was trying to verify this but I turned up empty handed. Could somebody point me in the right direction concerning this?


Thanks

Toto

"As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?" (1 Cor. 14:33b-36 NIV).

There is some speculation that this must be an interpolation into Paul's letter to the Corinthians, since he worked with women prophets. But this was taken seriously for most of Christian history. You will still find some conservative churches who do not allow women to preach.

The early church fathers seem to have debated whether woman had souls, but since the Virgin Mary was clearly in heaven, I don't see how they could have rationalized away women's souls.

Clivedurdle

Soulless women

John A. Broussard

Good reference. Well worth checking out. Unfortunately it tends to spend too much time on explaining why women have souls then on whether or not early Christians believed women had souls.

E.g., "if women do not have a soul how could they be baptized, how receive the Eucharist, how be venerated as martyrs in heaven?"

Certainly, the important point is that women were definitely regarded as being inferior.

Clivedurdle

But I thought the point was the idea that they did not have souls was made up in the sixteenth century!

Toto

Chili split off here

John A. Broussard

No. Whether or not historians agree upon Christianity's view of women's souls or lack of souls, most would insist the notion is pre-Christian.

In fact, Christianity's early success may have been due to the fact that the nearest rival cult (Mithraism) did in fact deny the existence of female souls. In contrast, Christianity was very liberal, and allowed women to partake in at least part of the early religious ceremonies. In fact women probably made up the majority of those first recruits.

Now, where the idea of a soul-less female ever emerged is something else. Women were often regarded as having a void that only man could fill. (Freud would have loved that sentence) In other words, they lacked something that men had. When the concept of a soul developed, it was probably natural to assume that males had it, and that the soul was what was missing in women.

Obviously, I'm just speculating about that, but it's clear that Judaeo/Christian/Muslims have always relegated women to an inferior place in this world--soul or not.

Boomeister

Just some random thoughts:

It's so fun to be thought of as inferior. I like being paid less money for the same job, having less opportunities, and being thought of as an insult to guys ("you throw like a girl.") I can thank my Baptist upbringing for all that "women submit to your husbands" crap that Paul so lovingly wrote in Corinthians. Even child birth can be reframed into being something inferior! Just got to love it.

Robert Plant sung "I don't know, but I've been told. A big-legged woman aint got no soul."

I'd rather be a dog than a woman if I had to live in a strict Muslim country...or if I lived in the Dark Ages. I think dogs get treated better.

It's easier to mistreat someone if you think of them as inferior or having no soul, I guess.

jeweledsunshine

Don't you find this reassuring? To me, the following verses show that the idea of women having no souls was not embraced by everyone and that God did not intend for women to be considered soulless.

First Peter - Chapter 3:7

7. Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

And:

Colossians - Chapter 3:19

19. Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

Toto

Chili digression split off here

Let's keep this to Biblical Criticism and History, not the general status of women