Steven Carr

Jesus' Cry From the Cross: Towards a First-Century Understanding of the Intertextual Relationship between Psalm 22 and the Narrative of Mark's Gospel (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Jesus Cry From The Cross

In this book, Holly Carey shows just how embedded the idea of the Righteous Sufferer was in strands of 1st century Judaism.

No wonder Christians were not embarrassed by the idea of a crucified Messiah.

It was practically mainstream, in certain circles.

andrewcriddle

The question is not so much about the idea of the righteous sufferer, the issue is about whether or not the Messiah would be a righteous sufferer.

Andrew Criddle

Steven Carr

Who else?

andrewcriddle

The Messiah, the anointed son of David, is a specific figure in Jewish expectations, and there is little evidence that in the 1st century CE and before, the Messiah was expected to be a righteous sufferer.

The teacher of righteousness from Qumran may have been seen as a righteous sufferer, but the teacher of righteousness was clearly not regarded as the Davidic Messiah.

Andrew Criddle

Chili

Good point as both 'Christ' and 'anti-Christ' are set free on the cross with Mathew and Mark delivering anti-Christ and Luke and John presenting Christ (with Mary as triumvir in the event with 'mother there is your son').

It is in there very thick and obvious all over but especially with the repeated words "My God, my God, why has't thou forsaken me" in Matthew and Mark as opposed to "Old father, old artificer, into thy hands I commit my spirit" in Joyces "Portrait" and "It is finished" in John.

. . . and don't forget, the chief priests knew exactly how it was to be done and cautionned Pilate that if he did not stay underground for 3 days or better a new [empowered] imposture would emerge that would be much worse than the first. Now notice please that "imposture" is not equal to 'imposter' in that it points at the prime mover of the new man instead of the man who so remains divided in his own mind while the new Man of Luke and John would be free as man in the image of God as in "my Lord and my God" and thus without doubt and therefore without faith as well = free.

aa5874

Even in the Synoptics Jesus did NOT teach that his crucifixion was for the remission of the Sins of Jews but his crucifixion signified that the JEWS had REJECTED the Son of God and that as a result of their REJECTION his Father God had no choice but to destroy the Jews and GOD'S OWN TEMPLE.

The CRUCIFIXION and REJECTION of Jesus is the fulfillment of prophecy the Jews and the Temple would be destroyed and immediately after heaven and earth would pass away.

Faith that Jesus was the Messiah and Son of God was the PRIMARY criteria for SALVATION.

From the start of gMark as early as chapter 2, Jesus REMITTED the sins of the sick with FAITH.

Mark 2.5 .

In the Synoptics it was FAITH for SALVATION.
Mr 9:19 - If the Jews had FAITH in Jesus that he was the Messiah and son of God they would ALL have been SAVED, their SINS would have been REMITTED, and they would NOT have crucified and Rejected Jesus thereby causing GOD destroy his own people and Temple.

In effect, there would ALWAYS be SALVATION whether Jesus was crucified or not.

This is the Synoptic story.

1. FAITH >--SALVATION.

2. CRUCIFIXION>--DESTRUCTION.

3. DESTRUCTION>---THE END of heaven and earth.

4. The END of heaven and earth>---the NEW Jerusalem, the kingdom of God.

Steven Carr

So in first century Judaism, the expectation was that the Righteous Sufferer would be a teacher of righteousness?

Or did the Qumran community innovate, something that might have been beyond Christians?

How specific was this Messiah? Did all Jews scorn the idea that Daniel prophesied that the Messiah would be 'cut off'?

aa5874

Did any Jew believe the "Righteous Sufferer" would be a blasphemer?

In Jesus stories found in the NT Canon the Sanhedrin found Jesus guilty of death for blasphemy and he was eventually executed by crucifixion.

There is no so-called prophecy in Daniel about a "Righteous Sufferer" as a blasphemer.

Chili

. . . oops, Joyces words are "Old father, old artificer, stand me now and ever in good stead," and he spoke those words on April 27 just 3 day before resurrection on May1, and after a 40 day count down towards this event.

aa5874

This is Athenagoras of Athens in "A Plea to Christians" who appears to believe in the LOGOS the philosophical Son of God, NOT the suffering WORD who became "Flesh" and was crucified in gJohn 1.

According to Athenagoras God is NOT in need of BLOOD. There is no need to SACRIFICE.

"Plea to the Christians" There were so-called Christians in the 2nd century who had nothing to do with the Jesus of the NT who supposedly shed his blood.

Salvation of mankind should NOT be achieved by the murder or killing of a man just FAITH in God, the FRAMER and FATHER of the Universe.

This is a supposed Christian called Octavius in Minucius Felix It was not necessary for a man to have been murdered or SHED his BLOOD to obtain Salvation from God according some Christians of antiquity.