Freethought & Rationalism Archive

PhilosopherJay · 11-28-2012, 02:44 PM

Justin Martyr or his editor gives us a description of the technology of Christianity in his "Apology" It is done almost as an afterthought to his defense of Christians against charges of gross immorality and criminality.

He describes a baptism ceremony for the initiate (Chapter 64).

Quote:

But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.

1. Initiate is brought to a place where the brethen are gathered
2. Initiate washed
3. Prayers for Brethren and Initiate are given
4. Everybody says Amen. (Agreed)
5. President gives thanks and everybody says amen again.
6. Deacons hand out wine and bread.
7. Distribution of bread and wine to those who are absent.

Now that the magic initiation ceremony is over. What does the initiate do for the rest of their life. He describes this in chapter 66:

Quote:

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

This is what Christians do:

1. Remind each other about doctrines
2. Wealthy helps the needy
3. Hang out together.
4. Bless Jesus and the Holy Ghost
5. Gather on Sundays
a. Memoirs of the Apostles or works of prophets are read if time permits
b.President gives a pep talk to be good and act like Jesus and prophets
c. People give thanks and say Amen.
d. President gives thanks and everybody says Amen.
e. Bread and wine are distributed. People drink and eat.
f. Deacons send out bread and wine to those who are absent.
g. There is a collection of money that the President gets. Theoretically, he uses this money to care care of anybody who needs it.

It is interesting that the initiation ceremony is basically no different from the Sunday gathering.

When we get past all the mystical nonsense, we see that Christianity begins as a primitive form of banking and insurance. People gather and give their money to a custodian (president) who holds it and gives it out to those who are in need. The drinking of wine and sharing of bread is simply a symbolic assurance that the customers (Christians) will get their money back when they need it. It is like the passbook and month accounting statements that the banks use to give out or the online activity and account statements that we now get when we bank online.

It was because it performed an important economic function (banking and insurance) that Christianity grew and continued.

The ideology played an important function in relation to the primary economic function. It kept people from questioning that they were placing their faith in the President (Priest) and would lose their money entirely if he was dishonest. The President had to pretend to be the representative of an all good God or at least the representative of the son of an all good god to assure the customers that he would not cheat them out of their money, but would use the money to help them when they were in need.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Clivedurdle · 11-28-2012, 02:56 PM

No! It was all initiated by Jesus and his disciples.

Or Jesus and his disciples and all the theology were developed as stronger passwords and security devices to keep the hoi poloi out.

The people thrown to the lions were keeping the passwords secret....

sotto voce · 11-28-2012, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Justin Martyr

Oh, do be serious. Clement, Origen, Justin, what a pile of tedious, egregious, forecast turdery.

'I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.' Ac 20:29-3 NIV

BC&H.

Toto · 11-28-2012, 04:58 PM

Hi Jay - isn't this true of much of modern Christianity?

Think of the success of Mormonism in the American West, where it functioned as a social support, welfare, and business roundtable.

PhilosopherJay · 11-28-2012, 05:43 PM

Hi Toto,

Exactly.

What I like about Martyr is that he makes it so clear and simple.
You get washed, you say some thank you and amens, you eat a little and drink some wine and then you check up each Sunday to make sure that the money is really going to the needy and will be there when you need it. If there's time, you might even hear some entertaining stories from the Memoirs or the prophets.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Hi Jay - isn't this true of much of modern Christianity?

Think of the success of Mormonism in the American West, where it functioned as a social support, welfare, and business roundtable.

sotto voce · 11-28-2012, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi Toto,

Exactly.

What I like about Martyr is that he makes it so clear and simple.
You get washed, you say some thank you and amens, you eat a little and drink some wine and then you check up each Sunday

Oh yes. Sun worshippers ok. Sun and Bacchus.

Duvduv · 11-28-2012, 06:01 PM

Good old "Justin Martyr." I hope I am not the only person who noticed that in those two passages of the religious ceremony involved one would not know it had anything to do with "Christians" if two prepositional phrases were removed:

a) "through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost"

b) "through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost."

Thus, if these two passages delete these two prepositional phrases all one would come up with is some monotheistic ceremony of some kind that may or may not have been Jewish-friendly. The author could thus have simply lifted the passages from somewhere and adapted them to the "Christians."

PhilosopherJay · 11-28-2012, 07:04 PM

Hi Duvduv,

I didn't notice that. It is interesting.

Let's look at the only two theological phrases in this description of what Christians do:

Quote:

There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands.

"His Hands" would refer only to the father of the Universe, so we can be reasonably sure that through the name of the son and of the Holy ghost are add ons.

Quote:

and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost.

Why bless the maker of all through his son and the Holy Ghost? It makes more sense to just bless the maker of all "for all things wherewith we are supplied" Thus the original two phrases were "the father of the universe and the maker of all"

This immediately reminds us of Plato's Timaeus:

Quote:

But the father and maker of all this universe is past finding out; and even if we found him, to tell of him to all men would be impossible.

Could Martyr be taking a description of a Platonic cult as his description of Christian culture?

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Good old "Justin Martyr." I hope I am not the only person who noticed that in those two passages of the religious ceremony involved one would not know it had anything to do with "Christians" if two prepositional phrases were removed:

a) "through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost"

b) "through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost."

Thus, if these two passages delete these two prepositional phrases all one would come up with is some monotheistic ceremony of some kind that may or may not have been Jewish-friendly. The author could thus have simply lifted the passages from somewhere and adapted them to the "Christians."

aa5874 · 11-29-2012, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Good old "Justin Martyr." I hope I am not the only person who noticed that in those two passages of the religious ceremony involved one would not know it had anything to do with "Christians" if two prepositional phrases were removed:

a) "through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost"

b) "through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost."

Thus, if these two passages delete these two prepositional phrases all one would come up with is some monotheistic ceremony of some kind that may or may not have been Jewish-friendly. The author could thus have simply lifted the passages from somewhere and adapted them to the "Christians."

Justin mentioned "Christians" over 30 times in "First Apology". Perhaps he did NOT want us to be confused??

Perhaps he did NOT lift the passages??

Perhaps Justin wrote those two phrases to avoid ambiguity??

Perhaps one would NOT know anything if everything was unknown.

The writings of Justin appear to have far more data about the 2nd century Jesus cult than virtually every Jesus cult writer.

1. From Justin we learn the leader of the congregation was called the President--Not Bishop.

2. From Justin we learn that the name Christian was NOT only applied to the Jesus cult.

3. Justin shows that the 2nd century Jesus cult was functioning similar to the Jesus cult in Acts of the Apostles.

4. From Justin we learn that the 2nd century Jesus cult used an ANONYMOUS Jesus story that was believed to have been composed by the Apostles.

5. Baptism [Washing] was extremely important in the 2nd century Jesus cult.

6. Sharing of Wealth was also practised.

Amazingly, Justin Martyr's 2nd century Jesus cult is very similar to the Essenes who practised ritual baptism and shared their wealth with the needy.

Duvduv · 11-29-2012, 05:05 AM

You know perfectly well that I was specifically referring to this passage about the ritual and not the entire text.
Beyond that, you know you have no original manuscript and no evidence it was even written in the second century. You know you are taking the church's claim about the text uncritically for dating it.
You know that you are engaging in spin and inference based on unproven church claims dating the text to the second century. Why not admit these facts and be honest?
And please don't answer questions with questions.

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11-28-2012, 02:56 PM	#2
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	No! It was all initiated by Jesus and his disciples. Or Jesus and his disciples and all the theology were developed as stronger passwords and security devices to keep the hoi poloi out. The people thrown to the lions were keeping the passwords secret....

11-28-2012, 04:58 PM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Hi Jay - isn't this true of much of modern Christianity? Think of the success of Mormonism in the American West, where it functioned as a social support, welfare, and business roundtable.

11-28-2012, 06:01 PM	#7
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Good old "Justin Martyr." I hope I am not the only person who noticed that in those two passages of the religious ceremony involved one would not know it had anything to do with "Christians" if two prepositional phrases were removed: a) "through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost" b) "through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost." Thus, if these two passages delete these two prepositional phrases all one would come up with is some monotheistic ceremony of some kind that may or may not have been Jewish-friendly. The author could thus have simply lifted the passages from somewhere and adapted them to the "Christians."

11-29-2012, 05:05 AM	#10
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	You know perfectly well that I was specifically referring to this passage about the ritual and not the entire text. Beyond that, you know you have no original manuscript and no evidence it was even written in the second century. You know you are taking the church's claim about the text uncritically for dating it. You know that you are engaging in spin and inference based on unproven church claims dating the text to the second century. Why not admit these facts and be honest? And please don't answer questions with questions.

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