worldling

Were there any messianic claimants before Jesus came along? More importantly did any of them meet with any success?

I'm having a discussion with a xian about Messiah Belief Syndrome - the psychological phenomenon whereby believers in a messiah continue to believe in him/her even after they have been debunked. I mentioned Sabbatai Zevi as an eg.

My xian claims that the syndrome didn't exist before Jesus came along, and asks for examples to disprove the claim.

(There are numerous counter arguments to this of course, but a successful pre-Jesus messiah would be nice bonus)

TIA
worldling

ichabod crane

I'm pretty sure there were a stack of claimant Messiahs before Jesus came into the picture. I think Josephus might be a good source for this, I seem to remember something in his writings where he listed various alleged Messiahs before and after Christ. Maybe somebody can track down the exact quote, to save me looking it up? Please!

doubtingthomas

Theudas or Menaham ben Judah were in close proximity to Jesus; though I think they may have come a decade or so later. Also, I may be wrong, but I believe that some of the early Jewish zealots revolting against the Romans either made messianic claims themselves, or were heralded by others as the messiah.

doubtingthomas

"Another body of wicked men also sprung up, cleaner in their hands, but more wicked in their intentions, who destroyed the peace of the city no less than did these murderers [the Sicarii]. For they were deceivers and deluders of the people, and, under pretense of divine illumination, were for innovations and changes, and prevailed on the multitude to act like madmen, and went before them in the wilderness, pretending that God would there show them signs of liberty"

jbernier

I am not sure about these exact examples but there certainly were many "messiahs" in 1st century Palestine. No question about that. Now, of course, that does not actually establish that Jesus was or was not the messiah - it merely presents a wider range of claimants.

Either way, though, I think we need to ask what "messiah" meant in its context. The idea of "messiah" had evolved over time but originally it simply meant the "anointed of God" and would refer primarily to Israelite kings who were anointed at their "coronation". In this sense "messiah" was closer to an office than it was to a specific person.

Of course, by the time of Jesus it had taken on intense eschatological meanings among many groups within Judaism - the Essenes, the Enochines, etc., so that one final "messiah" would come at the end and cumulation of time. Hence the imagery of the cosmic Christ in Revelation, etc. However, I think that it might be helpful to read the idea of "messiah" typologically - by imagining that "messiah" contains a multiplicity, that a variety of people throughout Jewish history will be "messiahs" in the sense of being God's anointed for a special task, role, etc. - that "messiah" is a type of social role rather than a specific, extra spiffy, person. This seems to be closer to the earlier idea of "messiah". It also offers a new framework for Jewish-Christian dialogue in which Jewish people could consider the possibility that Jesus was a "messiah" without necessarily accepting the whole Christological framework that has been built up and Christian people could more fully locate Jesus with Jewish Messianic history rather than as the man who renders the entire Jewish tradition obsolete (i.e. it stands against supercessionist theologies).

Either way, I am not convinced that the messianic claims about Jesus are that important theologically. I think that it is more useful to locate Jesus within the Israelite and Jewish prophetic traditions than it is to locate him within the lineage of the house of David. As prophet we can more fully bring Jesus' sharp criticism of the social realities around him and reflect upon the Christian's proper relationship with the state and society in general. I would argue that Christianity was primarily and should begin again a movement of people who on theological grounds continue to call the government to account for its failures to respect human life (note that I did not say "hold them accountable for their moral choices" - the religious right in the US has completely missed the point by focussing upon presidential indiscreations and the restriction of human rights rather than upon the state's inhumanity to other human beings, whether it be in economic policy, foreign policy, etc.).

Jonathan

worldling

Thanks to all for your replies. I have just checked out Josephus, and he records 5 messiahs before Jesus: Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BCE), Simon of Peraea (4 BCE), Athronges, the shepherd (4 BCE), Judas, the Galilean (6 CE), John the Baptist (c.28 CE).

But what I am really interested in is their followers. Did any of them continue to believe in them after they died. Unfortunately, Josephus doesn't say.

So, no messiah example - but all is not lost. What I am trying to demonstrate is that the psychological phenomenon of "True Believer Syndrome" is a human constant throughout history. So any pre-Christian example of this will suffice to debunk my Xian friend's claim that people only started believing unconditionally in things such as messiahs after Christ had shown the way.

Any further ideas much appreciated.

Toto

There are still followers of John the Baptist, known as Mandeans. Opinion is divided on whether there is a direct link between JtB and the Mandeans, or whether they just adopted him at a later date.

mrmoderate

At the time of Jesus the Jews were seriously split on their beliefs. Prior to Roman rule, Jews were in power after the Maccabian revolt. Prior to that, Jews were heavily Hellenized under Greek rule.

By the time Jesus was born there were several major Jewish sects and many more minor denominations. Hellenistic Jews were willing to give up the old testament laws altogether while strict sects demanded complete control of others. There were even non-Jews that were converts to Judaism after the Maccabian victory. One such family was the family of King Herrod who was not Jewish by race but rather by family conversion.

During this fractionalized time there were several Messianic claimants who all worked toward the Zealot attitude of leading the Jews into revolt against the Romans. They were all put down and put to death and had no following afterward.

Ted Hoffman

sorry, wrong post

worldling

Thanks, Toto. This is exactly what I'm looking for. It seems JtB had "disciples" long after his death. What is more, they had never even heard of Jesus, thus falsifying my Xian friend's claim.

The source of this information? Acts 19:
And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.