Freethought & Rationalism Archive

the minnow · 12-15-2006, 08:19 PM

The creatures known as Leviathan and Behemoth described in the Bible, what is the most likely explanation for their descriptions? (The creatures that creationists try to use to "justify :Cheeky: the idea that dinosaurs coexisted with man) Are they referring to mythological animals of Hebrew legend or real life animals (such as Leviathan crocodile, or whale, or Behemoth as an elephant or hippo)? What is the most "realistic" explanation?

Malachi151 · 12-15-2006, 08:43 PM

A lot of ancient people actually had concepts of giant creatures based on fossils. Adrienne Mayor's work on this is pretty conclusive. I suspect that the Leviathan and Behemoth refer to mythical creatures of the ancient world, probably also common in Babylonian culture, which are based on fossil finds among the ancients.

Diogenes the Cynic · 12-15-2006, 08:55 PM

The Behemoth is probably a hippopotamus, the Leviathan is probably a crocodile.

S.C.Carlson · 12-15-2006, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

A lot of ancient people actually had concepts of giant creatures based on fossils. Adrienne Mayor's work on this is pretty conclusive.

I was going to mention The First Fossil Hunters (or via: amazon.co.uk), but now I do not have to. Perhaps related to this are the "Nephilim" (Gen 6:4, cf. Num 13:33, Deut 2:10-11).

Aerik · 12-15-2006, 09:48 PM

Leviathan was commonly used to describe the crocodiles which grew to impressive sizes in the Nile, Red Sea, and the Nile Delta into the Mediterreanean, I think. Although Thomas Hobbes's "the Leviathan" referred to an overblown "mother nature" philosophy.

Thomas II · 12-15-2006, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the minnow

The creatures known as Leviathan and Behemoth described in the Bible, what is the most likely explanation for their descriptions? (The creatures that creationists try to use to "justify :Cheeky: the idea that dinosaurs coexisted with man) Are they referring to mythological animals of Hebrew legend or real life animals (such as Leviathan crocodile, or whale, or Behemoth as an elephant or hippo)? What is the most "realistic" explanation?

Actually I see Leviathan as a Colossal Squid, a Mesonychoteuthis hamiltoni,
which is about 60 feet long.

The Behemoth is probably a big Hippo.

John Kesler · 12-16-2006, 05:14 AM

John Day, in Yahweh and The Gods And Goddesses of Canaan (or via: amazon.co.uk), says the following on page 99:

Quote:

In the Old Testament the dragon is sometimes called Leviathan, and he is said to have more than one head (Ps. 74.14) and is referred to as tannin 'dragon' and is described as a 'twisting serpent' (Isa. 27.1). In the Ugaritic texts we similarly read of a seven-headed dragon (tnn) called ltn, frequently vocalized by modern scholars as Lotan, but more probably Litan, and he is referred to as having been defeated by the god Baal...as well as the goddess Anat...Elsewhere in the Old Testament we find the dragon called Rahab (e.g. Ps. 89.11 [ET 10); this name is not attested in any extra-biblical text, though as is he called 'the twisting serpent' (Job 26.12-13) this is presumably an alternative name for Leviathan.

Regarding the alleged naturalization of the chaos monsters Leviathan and Behemoth, Day states this on pages 102-103:

Quote:

Job 40.15-41.26 (ET 34) contains a description of two beasts, Behemoth and Leviathan. It has often been claimed that these are the names of two actually existing creatures rather than mythical beasts. The most commonly held view...is that Behemoth is the hippopotamus and Leviathan the crocodile. Such views are, however, seriously open to question. It is clearly implied that Job, and by implication, humans generally, are unable to overcome these creatures and that only Yahweh has control over them. This alone tends to rule out the various natural creatures suggested for Behemoth and Leviathan...since [crocodiles and hippos] were certainly captured in the ancient Near East. Moreover, the particular details given in the descriptions do not fit actual known creatures. Thus Leviathan is said to breathe out fire and smoke (Job 40.10-13, ET 1-21), a clear indication that a dragon is in mind. Leviathan is elsewhere in the Old Testament (including Job, cf. 3.8) as well as in Ugaritic no natural creature but a mythical sea serpent or dragon, and it is most natural to suppose that this is also the case here...There are good grounds for seeing Behemoth too as a mythical monster. Certainly the description of its tail is high and lifted up like a cedar (Job 40.19) is odd if the allusion is to a hippopotamus or other natural creatures...As with Leviathan, it is implied that it cannot be captured and that God alone can master it (Job 40.9-14, 24). The name Behemoth means 'great ox', and interestingly the Ugaritic texts mention a mythical ox-like creature alongside Leviathan known as Arsh or El's calf Atik...and this must surely be the ultimate source of the figure of Behemoth...Arsh is represented as dwelling in the sea, just as Behemoth is depicted as dwelling in a river in Job 40.23...Leviathan's defeat by Yahweh is clearly associated with the time of creation in Ps 74.14. Nothing in the text suggests that Leviathan and Behemoth are here symbolic of foreign nations. Rather the implication seems to be that, just as Job cannot overcome the chaos monsters Behemoth and Leviathan, which Yahweh defeated at creation, how much less can he (Job) overcome the God who vanquished them. His only appropriate response is therefore humble submission to God (Job 42.1-6). The point being made here is very similar to that found in Job 9.13-14.

You may also want to read a post by Yitzhak Sapir from the b-Hebrew group, which states in part that "Job 40:25 onwards describes in graphic terms who Leviathan was, how powerful he was, and what God did to him. The description of fire breathing in Job 41:10-13 would definitely befit a dragon as would the mention of scales, of terror and fear wherever it walks, and the comparison elsewhere to a snake."

Aerik · 12-18-2006, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Actually I see Leviathan as a Colossal Squid, a Mesonychoteuthis hamiltoni,
which is about 60 feet long.

Actually I thought that was one of the two generally known forms of Kraken, the other being a giant reptilian man with the head of a haddock, or some kind of fishy face.

I have weird memories of mythology I don't read about all the time and don't care much about, though...

judge · 12-19-2006, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the minnow

The creatures known as Leviathan and Behemoth described in the Bible, what is the most likely explanation for their descriptions?

I have just been reading Mark Smith's book The Origins of Biblical Monotheism (or via: amazon.co.uk), after gratefully having it recommended on this forum.

I dont have it in front of me now but IIRC there is a suggestion in that book that Leviathan might be an allusion to a Ugaritic god or a west Semetic god at least.

Anyone know about this?

Woops added in edit, I just noticed John Kesler's post. thanks for that John.

John Kesler · 12-19-2006, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Woops added in edit, I just noticed John Kesler's post. thanks for that John.

You're welcome. I'll just add that Smith indeed discusses Leviathan on pp 36-37, but one of his footnotes refers the reader to The Anchor Bible Dictionary entry for Leviathan--written by none other than John Day, the man from whose book I quoted.

12-15-2006, 08:19 PM	#1
the minnow Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 74	What is the Leviathan and Behemoth really referring to? The creatures known as Leviathan and Behemoth described in the Bible, what is the most likely explanation for their descriptions? (The creatures that creationists try to use to "justify :Cheeky: the idea that dinosaurs coexisted with man) Are they referring to mythological animals of Hebrew legend or real life animals (such as Leviathan crocodile, or whale, or Behemoth as an elephant or hippo)? What is the most "realistic" explanation?

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12-15-2006, 08:43 PM	#2
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	A lot of ancient people actually had concepts of giant creatures based on fossils. Adrienne Mayor's work on this is pretty conclusive. I suspect that the Leviathan and Behemoth refer to mythical creatures of the ancient world, probably also common in Babylonian culture, which are based on fossil finds among the ancients.

12-15-2006, 08:55 PM	#3
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	The Behemoth is probably a hippopotamus, the Leviathan is probably a crocodile.

12-15-2006, 09:48 PM	#5
Aerik Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Shawnee Mission, KS Posts: 171	Leviathan was commonly used to describe the crocodiles which grew to impressive sizes in the Nile, Red Sea, and the Nile Delta into the Mediterreanean, I think. Although Thomas Hobbes's "the Leviathan" referred to an overblown "mother nature" philosophy.

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